Lead With That: What Corrine Diacre’s Firing Can Teach Us About the Importance of Wellbeing and Purposeful Leadership

Interview Transcript:

INTRO:  

Welcome back to CCL’s podcast, Lead With That, where we talk current events in pop culture to look at where leadership is happening and what’s happening with leadership.

Ren:

Earlier this month, Corinne Diacre, head coach of the French Women’s National soccer team, was fired from her job, just 4 months before the Women’s World Cup this summer. The reason? Malfunctions that seemed, in this context, irreversible. Not my words, but the words of the  4-person panel commissioned by the French Football Federation’s president, Philippe Diallo. He commissioned the panel to investigate claims about the culture in the team. Now Diacre’s not just another head coach let go of another job; she has quite the history. She was appointed as the first ever female coach of the French Women’s National team in 2017, and quickly made her mark by leading the team to an International Cup victory in 2018 in Portugal.

However, her tenure was not without its controversy, and her leadership style was frequently called into question. A disappointing showing at the Tokyo Olympics in 2021 was the most recent in a series of missed opportunities and losses. And now, after the firing, we’ll be exploring the different aspect of Diacre’s leadership style and see what we can glean from her firing. On the one hand, she was known for her strong personality and her ability to motivate her team to achieve great things, and on the other hand, her authoritarian approach may have alienated some of her players and staff, ultimately contributing to her downfall. So welcome back everyone. I’m Ren Washington, and as usual, I’m joined with Allison Barr. Allison, what’s the most discouraging behavior you’ve ever experienced from a leader?

Allison:

The most discouraging behavior … I would like to give you 2, because they’ve both had quite an impact. One was belittling me and others, in front of others, and the other was a severe lack of boundaries, which led to middle-of-the-night texts for work requests, giving the silent treatment, texts on weekends with work requests, and just very inappropriate communication behaviors. What about you?

Ren:

I want to come back to the silent treatment one, but probably the only behavior was maybe lording over the position, saying the words, “You’re just lucky to have a job.” And then that behavior excusing just the most poor and maybe irreversible behavior of its own.

Allison:

And so I’m curious, if you don’t mind sharing, what was the impact of those words on you? Like, you’re just lucky to have a job?

Ren:

Well, I mean there was some truth in that statement. There were plenty of people not working, and it was back in the day when I was waiting tables and being a bartender, and I needed the job. And I’d say that, long term, it certainly didn’t cultivate what I would consider sustained energy or loyalty to him as a manager. I think maybe if not for the pride I had in my work and the necessity to perform, I didn’t have much other motivation. So I’d say, a long way to say, a lack of motivation is probably the impact on me.

Allison:

It’s funny, it’s one of those scenarios where just because it’s true doesn’t mean you have to say it. Just because it was true that you were lucky, it does not mean you have to say it in a way that it sounds to me a bit threatening and condescending.

Ren:

And I think maybe the impact as you were starting to explore around the motivation and maybe before we go forward on that trail of motivation, what about you? I mean, you rattled off a series of behaviors that were maybe a bridge too far. What was the impact like for you?

Allison:

It was pretty tremendous, and I was younger in my career and I would say, just younger as a human being, and didn’t know how to advocate my for myself much. And so I developed an anxiety disorder. I had to go to therapy to work that out, and it was scary for me to go to work. I remember, I recall going to the office and trying to find an office that was as far away from this person as possible because they were just constantly just, like you said, lording over. It was constant. So it almost would take me the whole podcast to describe to you how the impact was on me, but it was life altering for sure.

Ren:

Yeah, and I think that maybe is what I’m most interested in exploring today, is the impact that a leader has on altering the lives of those around them. And not only from a positive standpoint, but just from some of the negative experiences that you’re talking about. And again, too, you highlighted some of what I hope to talk about today, is the mental weight that is expended on individuals with leaders who bring toxicity into their experience. I mean, I’m most interested in exploring in a lot more detail where accountability falls, and just the truth that all leaders listening — yeah you, listener, listening — that maybe finger-pointing is not the play. But before we get too far into that, a little bit more around Corrine Diacre.

And something that you said around motivation, because like I said, up top, it’s not too wild to hear about a coach being fired, but what I thought was interesting was this almost critical mass, and I read this really amazing story of Diacre from 2018, and by all accounts, a female, French, soccer player, national hero. She is an icon really for doing something as a defender in French national football that is representative of the kind of clout that she brought to the game. And then getting her appointments not only in the women’s national team, but the men’s national team and other groups around football. It’s interesting to see her be positioned for such success and heralded for most of her career for doing what I would consider coaching like a lot of sports coaches do. I think you’ve played some sports before, right, Allison? What was your A-number one sport?

Allison:

Oh, soccer was my first love.

Ren:

Soccer was your first love.

Allison:

And I haven’t played in years, but I love the sport. Or should I say football? I don’t know. We’re American, so we can say soccer I suppose, but soccer and tennis. I love both sports, and when I was growing up into my early college years, it was my absolute obsession.

Ren:

Well, okay, so then this’ll be a personal exploration of coaching and then maybe leadership, but give us a glimpse into your coach’s style. When you played soccer at the height of your performance and maybe the height of your passion for the game, what was the coach’s style like?

Allison:

There was a head coach and an assistant coach, and I would say they had a good balance between them of direct, more intense style. I wouldn’t call it dictator style, but I would call it direct and sort of intense. And the other one had more of a style of telling us what we were doing well, predominantly. And so that really worked for me because sometimes it calls for a direct approach, sometimes it does. Sometimes it calls for, “This is what you did really, really well,” or, “This is what we, rather, are doing really, really well, so do more of that and let’s not think about the mistakes,” because there’s a lot of mental aspects to most sports. So there was a good balance between the 2 of them.

Ren:

And I haven’t had a chance to read Corrine Diacre’s autobiography. Her star player who left the team now, I’ll say more about that in a moment, she had an autobiography that I was able to take a glimpse or 2 in and get a peek into Diacre’s experience with her. And by all accounts, it kind of reads, at least from the outside, that Diacre was a lot more of the serious and the hardcore versus the balance. And she’s gone on to say soon after to her firing that this is a smear campaign against her name, that things aren’t that bad, that she’s being a victim here in this scenario. But I think historically maybe, it’s a behavior that might have done too much. And what I mean by that is, she’s on the national team and she’s had a pretty tense past with the star players on the team and removing people’s captaincies because of their performance or because they don’t follow her rules, withholding people’s captaincies after an injury saying they’re not national team ready.

And then most recently she had a spate of players, like her most professional and successful players, leave the team. Wendie Renard may be the biggest name of them all, one of the best defenders in the world by all accounts. She said, “I’m out of here. I’m leaving the national team. It’s better for my mental health. I can’t play under the current circumstances or current situation,” I think she said. And then soon after, a striker and a forward, they said, “Yeah, we’re out of here too.” And so I don’t know enough exactly around the things that she’s saying or doing, but I have seen her reaction, and I start to take away some lessons about the importance of a leader making sure that the people they lead are in a position to thrive.

Allison:

Right. And 2 things can exist at the same time. We can still celebrate her history and the things that she’s done really, really well throughout her entire career. And you can also have glorious missteps that have a tremendous impact on people. I mean, these are world’s star, world global athletes, who my guess is probably wouldn’t step down from a job, because it is a job, that they love so much, unless there was a pretty significant impact on the health. And it sounds like that’s what was happening there. And like you said, and like we talk about a lot, leadership, whether you’re a coach of a team or a sporting team or a leader at an organization, leadership is a social process.

And to create that shared experience leaders need, well A, a team of people who are able to function at their best, and that leader needs to provide the environment for people to function at their best. Seems as though she wasn’t necessarily able to do that recently. And like you said, what’s interesting is that a group of players became very, very vocal and some of them ended up leaving. And when I translate that to the workplace, it’s the same. Parallels are the same. Have you ever worked for a company where there were groups of people who left because of a leader?

Ren:

No, not exactly. Probably not.

Allison:

Yeah, I can’t say that I have either. But it is that old cliche that people leave bad leaders, they don’t leave jobs because they go on to find similar work. So people are liking the work, they’re not liking the environment or the leader or what the leader is doing to achieve a goal.

Ren:

Yeah. Well, I mean, it’s something I do tell people and participants that I work with, professionals, and it’s something I tell you all listening right now, whether it’s a platitude or not, I think there’s something truth about people quit their bosses, not their job. And I think what we’re seeing is maybe even at the highest reaches in a sport that’s not really traditionally accepting of you quitting your boss, because in sport I think you’re supposed to be tough. It’s really interesting to say, and maybe this connects too to the larger conversation that we had around Naomi Osaka and just mental health and the importance of it.

But when you have some high-caliber athletes, I mean some of the world’s best, putting their foot down and saying, “No más, I’m not going to take this anymore. We’re out of here.” That it does point a finger to what kind of leadership styles persist because I’d say by and large, and I’m curious if you think this is a fair assessment or not, but I’d say historically and maybe vastly, sport coaching is a pretty command and control environment. And by that I say it’s like, do as I say, I tell you what to do. Maybe there’s not a lot of healthy feedback loops. Historically, would you say that’s true?

Allison:

See, I don’t. I disagree. And yeah, that’s interesting, but I’m not a professional athlete, but I did grow up playing sports and I have had incredibly direct coaches, but they lay out expectations. They did, rather, lay out expectations in the same way that a manager would or a leader. This is going to be hard work and this is what I expect of you. Are you on board? Can you do it, right? We’re going to run an hour worth of sprints and then you’re going to run 6 miles. That was my reality, but we knew what was expected of us. So it was hard, and, I don’t think tough means what it used to mean anymore.

Ren:

Well, I think you raised something interesting that I was thinking about just as you were reflecting, that when I say command and control, I don’t mean bad. For those of you listening who this is an unfamiliar term, the easiest idea of command and control you can think of is our armed services, where there’s a pretty clear hierarchy where orders are given and they aren’t challenged. That might be the most, probably like the most simple characterization of it, I’d say, admittedly, Allison. So I do think that, and as you’re reflecting on it, I think there’s something positive around directness. I might even add that this person being directive and outlining expectation is just a sign of a good leader. What I think I’m wondering is, I might say now though, I rarely go around and tell people, give orders, expect people to follow them. I would add a lot of the things that I would consider what you’re talking around is this emotional intelligence, this conversation of value highlighting, expectation setting, but getting a good idea of who you’re talking to and what they care about.

Allison:

So I do think there’s an element of our roles that is not control but command. Here’s the outline of our session that we’re going to do. If you’re the EP, the producer, here’s what we need you to do at this time. It’s pretty direct. Literally at 11:00 AM we need you to do this. At 12, we need you to do this. And I would say, going back to the soccer analogy as well, if you’re, again, it depends on the functioning of your team. We were good, we were functioning very well. Our team captains were the ones who, once we got into the season, not preseason, but once we got into the season, were really the ones who motivated and talked to us about strategy. So there was in a similar way at the workplace, some sort of, I guess hierarchy. And that’s not always a bad thing either, but there was both. There was that command control, directed-ness, emotional intelligence when it called for it, mindset conversations when it called for it. And yeah, I would argue that in our jobs, there are times that we are command and control.

Ren:

Well, actually, I love the delineation that you said. It’s like I certainly command, I don’t know about control. And what I resonated with that is like, okay, maybe there’s some empowerment structures of support in that kind of framework. And maybe that too was atypical in a traditional command and control environment, this idea of empowered decision making. It was like, no, I’m the single person who makes the decisions and let it fall. And I think Corrine Diacre fell victim to a pattern of behavior that paid off 10 years ago, 12 years ago, 14 years ago. And especially when she played. I bet there’s moments where she went home to talk to her significant other, said to them, “These players are just too weak. They don’t understand what I had to go through.” I mean, I could just imagine what so many leaders who fought a different fight talk about. And when I read about some of her behavior, just not letting players, being really strict about the kind of socks players wore, or the kind of music they are allowed to enjoy. And then the way she would snub them in public.

And I think we all know public criticism is just a big no-no, but to publicly lambast, give feedback to, not just a room of people, but to millions of viewers to say, “So-and-so didn’t listen to me, and that’s why we lost.” That’s all weird, bad behavior. But it seems she was just holding on so tight, like a white-knuckle grip to what was, and then 3 of the world’s best players say, “No thanks, I’m out of here.” Then the French Football Commission Federation says, “Emergency panel, let’s investigate this. And by the way, she’s out.” Now they’re still looking for a coach. But since then, Wendie Renard said she’s coming back. And so they fired her in hopes that the player would return, and now she’s on the back. So it seems like getting rid of the leader is making a difference. And that’s something that I really want to talk more about.

Allison:

It highlights for me 2 things that leaders really have to know how to do, is understand the difference between intention and impact. Because she’s saying that she’s the victim here. I’m sure she didn’t mean to. Most people are well intended. Most people think they’re doing the right … most people, I guess I don’t know that for sure, but most people are well intended. And if she was drawing from her own experience, like you said, times have changed. And if you don’t change, you die. That’s the old saying. You have to be able to adapt to new ways of behaving, new cultures that are being demanded at the workplace. And all of this is changing right now at the workplace, by the way. And I would imagine in the coaching sphere as well. And if you can’t adapt, then you’re not probably going to have a job as one of the greatest leaders of a soccer organization in the world. And I can understand that your fight was different. My parents’ fight was different, and I can validate that. And I’m sorry you went through that, and we need something different now.

Ren:

And I don’t know if Corrine … rather, Diacre, sorry, I’m on a first name basis with her. We have croissant on the weekend. I don’t know if Diacre did say those things. I was just saying I’ve seen leaders kind of say “back in my day,” that kind of sentiment. But yeah, it is interesting when we start to think about that intent and impact. And more and more I think one of my favorite conversations to have with leaders that come through our programs is this idea of intent and impact. Intent meaning what you meant to do, impact meaning how it showed up for other people. And especially in the context of this idea of meeting people where they’re at, but then as a leader ever hoping to say, “Well, the only reason this didn’t work is because they didn’t get on board.” I think those times are gone. If anything’s shifting, maybe less around the command and control, but the idea that a leader can point to them and say they are the problem, that’s not holding water anymore.

Allison:

No, it’s a leader’s responsibility to have those conversations. If your people aren’t performing, then you need to be able to coach them and motivate them, see the big picture, have performance conversations that are sometimes hard. And all of that’s in part what is essential to team functioning, among some other things, of course. But we know that’s part of it. And in our last couple of episodes, we talked about workplace trends for 2023, I believe that was our January episode. And one of those is employee wellbeing. And that was driven by a lot of things. One of them was the Great Resignation, which put organizations into a scramble trying to increase focus on self-care and profitability, because millions of people were leaving their jobs.

And what our research and the research of others has found is that, when employees have a sense of wellbeing, they’re more engaged, they’re more creative, they perform much better, have higher job satisfaction and productivity levels, and so on. So it really is a leader’s role to create that environment for people. And like you said, we know that belittling people, all the things that you and I both experienced, that’s not a), what people want in the workplace, and b), that’s not what’s going to make them thrive, or the organization either.

Ren:

And part of it for me boils down to personal accountability, because I have leaders who I’ve had this conversation with, and they’ll look at me and they’ll say, “Ren, you don’t understand. These people just aren’t getting it. They’re not pulling the weight. I’m sure you’ve heard this, but as every generation has always heard, they’re lazy, they don’t want to work, they don’t care about work.” And the most legitimate thing I can offer up to anyone who’s feeling that is, even if that’s true, here’s the truth. You’re the one who’s going to be held accountable, especially the higher the performers are in your organization, the less likely that they’re going to get rid of them for you. I mean, I think we’re all replaceable. Let’s not get too twisted about that. But when I think about this instance, there’s only one world’s best defense person in soccer. There’s a butt ton of coaches. And I bet there was a quick calculus that the organization did and said, “Listen here, we can’t get these 3 players back, but we could find someone to coach the team.”

Allison:

And I would imagine if there was an investigation at the Federation level, they were likely thinking about lawsuits as well, would be my guess. I don’t know that for a fact, but there’s a lot that goes into that because her behavior probably falls under the umbrella of hostile, creating a hostile environment, which again, I don’t know too much about the Soccer Federation, but I do know at the workplace that is a very big deal. And those investigations I’ve had, I almost said the luxury, but it’s definitely not a luxury. I’ve definitely had the experience, I’ve had the experience of sitting in as an unbiased witness on a couple of workplace investigations, and it’s very, very hard to prove … it’s very hard to prove these things. So for them to put the stamp on it, tells me, at least as someone who’s, again, no experience in the Soccer Federation but at the workplace, tells me that she must have done some things that are not great.

Ren:

Well, as you’re reflecting there, I wonder, proof or not, would it have mattered if the team was less effective, if the players were less high profile? ‘Cause I feel like you and I lament more often than not about leaders who take advantage of their power and aren’t really punished to this extent. So I wonder if it’s, does the punishment match the crime or does the punishment match the level of the participant involved?

Allison:

It’s probably all of the above, don’t you think? I mean, if it’s impacting the team so much that your stars are leaving, and even if the Federation looks at it simply from a win/loss mentality, that’s not what they want. So again, different goals. Haha. See what I did there. Different goals for the Soccer Federation. Unintended pun. But seriously, different mission, different strategy than workplaces. But at the end of the day, what they’re trying to do is win; that’s what they’re trying to do. So like you mentioned, there’s of course going to be times when we as leaders, and you all as leaders, need to have those tough conversations and give constructive feedback. Sometimes we need to be very direct. Sometimes we hire the wrong people. These things happen.

But you mentioned a couple of different words, like lazy, they just don’t care. You mentioned earlier, strong personality. I would encourage anyone who’s listening to get really clear about what you mean, because what does lazy mean? How do you know? How do you know that they’re being lazy? And if the behavior that you’re seeing is that they’re not getting their work done, that’s what you need to talk about. It’s good practice not to use judgment words when you’re having those types of tough conversations.

Ren:

And the reality is, I think tough conversations is one of the many tools in the toolbox that is proof that you’re really only as good as your ability to lift those around you. Especially from a leadership role. You’re brought into that space to elevate the role and everyone around you and help the company. I mean, I was just on a call today with someone talking about people who are battle tested. They’ve proven themselves as individuals. They’re really, really good at their jobs. Congratulations, you’re getting your promotion. And now they’re like, great, also, I don’t know what the heck I’m doing. I’m good at this other thing, not this new thing.

And I think, as a leader, what this story highlights for me is that less and less can we rely on the idea that it’s someone else’s problem. Even if a learner won’t get it or someone pushes back on the process, you said something really interesting too. Sometimes we hire the wrong person. So there’s got to be an admission of, I think, vulnerability and acceptance that if I hired the wrong person, then I have to find the right person. And if this is the right person, then I’ve got to help them be the best version of that person that they can be.

Allison:

And it comes down to having those objective conversations too. And if you hired the wrong person, you don’t even have to admit that to anyone but yourself so long as you, like you said, are taking personal responsibility to find a way to either help that person become the right person for the job or have some sort of performance conversations that might lead to another outcome.

Ren:

I love the idea of this private thought management, ’cause I’m a big fan of it, that a lot of people struggle with this notion of being vulnerable and admitting fault, but what an interesting frame. You don’t actually have to, at the outset of amending your solution. Now, I’m not suggesting anyone listening to run from admission of a fault. In fact, what we talk about often in building trust with people is your willingness to admit fault, is actually you’re seen as more effective, as easier to work with. But too, as you’re working to amend something, I often tell leaders like the whole “save your ‘sorrys’ for something major.” Thank people. You might have seen people like the LinkedIn posts. Replace every sorry you put in an email this week, folks, with thank you. And see how it goes and see if it liberates you. But this idea in this space, like hey, a wrong hire, okay, how do I learn? How do I amend? If someone says, “Hey, wrong hire, right Ren?” I’d say, “Yeah, missed that one, but we’re fixing it.”

I mean, it’s okay to admit it, but I think to work, don’t let this idea of a fear of admission of failure stop you from doing the right thing. And maybe that’s what the federation’s saying now. Like I said in the outset, Diacre’s an icon. She’s a woman, no less. She was fired in International Women’s Month, days before International Women’s Day. I wonder if there was a conversation in that room around the optics.

Allison:

Yeah, I mean …

Ren:

But then do you do the right thing? It’s an interesting … I don’t know. I have no idea.

Allison:

I think the fact that it’s International Women’s Month and it was days before is irrelevant because the impact, again, it goes back to impact. The impact that she was having was tremendous. And can you imagine being some of those players and hearing, “We’re not going to get rid of her right now because it’s International Women’s Month.” Well, we’re all women too, so … what? That doesn’t add up. Yeah. And I think, to your point, one of the best entryways into being comfortable with being vulnerable is exactly what you just mentioned, Ren, is being able to admit it to yourself. And it works. It works for a lot of people that I work with and coach to ask yourself, how do I know? I hired the wrong person, how do I know that? Because that’s where it will keep you objective. I know that because in their last presentation, they missed the boat on X, Y, and Z. So being able to get very granular and detailed will actually help you to have those conversations. It’s the avoidance of all of that that puts you in a really tough place.

Ren:

All right, hearing that steady drumbeat around the clarity of expectation, but I’m loving this behavioral focus, and I was just thinking, okay, whomever is next to helm the ship, you got a really clear opportunity to ask specifically, “Hey, Wendie. Hey, other players. Behaviorally, what was it?” Because I doubt it was the socks. “She wouldn’t let me wear my favorite socks.” Someone, you can get over that if the coach’s got a reason for it or tells you why, or gets you invested in the process like your coaches. Directive, but inclusive. So you’ve got to ask as a new person or any leader out there, since you know you’re on the block. Especially, the better your team is, the less likely they’re going to get rid of the better team than they’re going to get rid of you. So you’ve got to take accountability for that and say, “Hey, what things were working; what wasn’t?”

And then if they go, “It was just a vibe.” I’m like, “Great. What was the vibe?” You don’t accept generalities as a reason. Because again, if someone says, “Hey, Ren, it’s not happening. What’s going on there?” You’d be like, “Oh, they told me the vibe wasn’t on, so I tried to shift the vibe.” That’s not going to work. They’re going to say, “Sorry, Ren, you’re out of here. Let’s find a new coach. Let’s find a new boss.” And in the very least, if you can articulate an expectation, then you’ve got kind of like some CYA going on. Everyone’s clear on what’s been asked for. So if someone does come calling about what’s not working, you can say, well, we set these expectations and we’re not doing it because of X, Y, or Z; or we haven’t yet implemented this, which will change how we’re performing.

Allison:

You’re making me think of a conversation I had with a client last week, which was, and they said, and I quote, “I inherited a mess.” Have you ever heard that from any clients?

Ren:

Yeah.

Allison:

Yeah. This is, it’s common. “I inherited, this team was so beat down, or the former leader was totally unorganized.” Whatever it may be, it is your responsibility as a leader to do all the things that Ren just said and … ask for feedback. And when you’re given that feedback, to not take it personally. So if you do the expectation setting and then a player comes to you or somebody at your workplace comes to you and says, “Hey, here’s how that landed with me, and it was a negative outcome,” take a moment to think about it. Resist the temptation to become defensive. Again, it’s the intention and impact. If I hit a golf ball and it whacks you in the face, of course I wasn’t intending to, but if you broke a bone, then it’s important for me to tend to that versus me talking to you about what I intended to do. Of course I didn’t intend to. People know that. So it’s important to focus on the impact.

Ren:

And then I think, too, as you’re having those conversations, it’s okay to be human. You’re allowed to have an adverse reaction to something that you don’t like to hear about yourself. I’m criminal for not wanting feedback about things. I don’t ask questions for things I don’t want to hear the answer to. But I think maybe if you’re at all like that, listeners or leader, there’s probably space for you to look at the person you’re talking to and saying, “I’m here. I want to be better. I want to get feedback. I’m a human being too, and I’m not perfect. I might hear something that I don’t like. This is a stretch for me. I don’t usually do this. I’m trying. This is proof of me being better. And I might have to take a moment.”

I think, and it goes back to what you said around the expectation setting and creating an environment where we can be honest with each other and even honest as a boss or a manager or a leader saying, “I am a human too, and this is going to be an interesting experience for both of us. I’m keen to hear your feedback. And if it’s painful feedback, it might sting for a bit, but then I’ll use it.”

Allison:

I saw a funny meme just the other day that said, it was a boss speaking to his or her direct reports and saying, “I welcome your feedback so long as it’s a compliment about me.” It was funny. So it’s a brave thing to do, to ask for feedback in a situation where there’s a possibility that it might not be positive, maybe it will be, but a possibility that it’s not going to be great. And self-regulation is what you make me think of too, is being able to say, “Okay, I need to take a minute. Thank you for your feedback. Let me just take a minute on that,” or whatever it is that you need to do. People will follow you as a leader as well. And that actually will likely translate and be contagious to how the people you manage behave as well. And their ability to give and receive feedback; that self-regulation is so important.

Ren:

Well, and something that you just said there is just a reminder that accountability is high, I think, on those leadership roles, because impact is high. I think a single individual like this has the ability to help a football team be better than sum of their parts. A leader that we care about, that cares about us, has an ability to get more energy, more discretionary effort out of the 8 hours or 12 hours that we put into a workday. And it’s these people who can unlock in us a little bit more. And it’s amazing to think then about, well, if I model certain behaviors, even behaviors of vulnerability or imperfection, and then others around me start to do the same, do we create an environment where we fail fast, where we are not mean to each other, where we want to come to work because we’re not afraid to come to work?

I mean, I think the data would say, and we might say, yeah, that’s some of the outcomes that you can expect. So it’s just so interesting for someone to maybe no longer hide behind the veil of, well, why don’t they just do what I tell them to? It doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter if you inherited a crap team. If they didn’t get rid of the team last time because it was a crap team, what makes you think they’re going to get rid of them again, new person? They just hired you. They’re going to get rid of you too. And I know being part of a crap team, that’s tough. I’m not trying to make it sound easy out there for anybody. But it is that truth that, okay, good. Catalog that, say it out loud, tell someone in your family, then get to work. You’ve got to fix it. And this new football coach for France’s National team, same thing’s going to be on there. They’re going to expect some changes.

Allison:

Right, and yeah. So I think, too, what you’re alluding to is for organizations to get ahead of this, to start to think about how they can create a culture of wellbeing. And what we found in our research is that that would include that people know their purpose. There’s an ability to growth, for growth, rather, and it probably includes having some of those conversations you mentioned. That there’s a focus on health, agency, people have choices, connection, and resilience. And culture change can take time. However, when leaders can focus on those 6 things, they’re prioritizing not only wellbeing for their teams, but for themselves as well. And predictions, workplace predictions for this year are that this is what’s going to make employees stay, so your turnover’s going to decrease. This is what will make people more effective, happier, more engaged, innovative, and so on and so forth. So it’s a good time and place to start looking at those things to get ahead of that trend.

Ren:

Yeah, I think as we maybe cast a vision to kind of what’s happening next, what I’m most interested in seeing is … I want to see how they perform. They got a new coach. They haven’t had a new coach in a long time. So coaching a new team is difficult anyway when you’ve had a long-tenured coach. I want to see, does it make a difference? Does their mental wellbeing and their general environment improve? I’m really curious to see if coaching changes at all. Will we see more of this Zen-style coaching? Do you know Pete Carroll, the coach of the Seahawks?

Allison:

I know of him, yes.

Ren:

Yes. Know of him. You don’t know him personally.

Allison:

Not yet.

Ren:

You don’t breakfast with him and me and Corrine? Well, I guess he’s kind of famed, most recently, as the most, kind of, Zen coach where he’s all about clean food, clean mind, clean diet, clean space. He’s a fun guy. And so is that the trend or is that going to persist? So I wonder then what other players will come back. And so I’m most interested to see, though, is how are they going to perform? And will this make a difference?

Allison:

And I am too, because again, we don’t know the nitty-gritty details of what happened and the assessment of people’s mental health. But if I look at this organizational parallel here, when employees have burnout, for example, which is different, but let’s just humor me here. If an employee is burned out, it can take years to recover from that. So even if you are the best coach in the world, or the best leader in the world, and you come in, your people are going to have a different set of needs. And you might need to be very patient. You probably will need to be very, very patient, ask a lot of questions. Some of the best leaders I know are heavier on the question side, especially when there’s some bruised people.

Ren:

Yeah, I agree. Did we do it? Are we taking away now?

Allison:

Yeah. I mean, I think there’s a lot that we can take away, but I guess, Ren, if you were talking to a new manager of somebody who’s inherited a team that’s been put through the wringer, what’s one thing that you would tell them to do?

Ren:

Yes. Number one is manage the polarity of the truth of your circumstances. Like, yes, you’re a new manager. Yes, you’ve got a team who’s been put through it. Yes, the job is hard and the people are upset, and it might be unfair. All of those things can be true. And then the other side of that polarity is … and you’ve got to get to work. And so as soon as you can, recognize your personal accountability and what you can do to change your circumstances, because I think, leader, if you’re ever going to wait for someone else to change your circumstances, or especially if someone’s coming for you and then you point to some other people and be like, “No, no, no, it’s their fault the circumstances haven’t changed,” I promise you, you’re going to be pointing all the way out of the door when they see you later. So I would say recognize the truth that yes, sometimes it’s unfair and it sucks. And then personal accountability, get to work. Do what you can do, because you have to.

Allison:

Yeah, and I agree with everything that you said, and I’ll add, at the workplace, one thing you can do today, regardless of your team and how long they’ve been under your leadership, and regardless of the theme or the mentality of that team, one thing that you can do today is help them to connect their work to purpose. When employees feel that there’s value and meaning behind their work, they’re much more likely to feel a sense of purpose. And if you are a leader, you can encourage your teammates to think about what makes work meaningful for them. Ask them, “What brought you energy last week, and what’s frustrating for you?” Those 2 questions can be really, really helpful so that you as the leader have a better understanding of what’s happening in their world.

And so, as always, Ren, this was a great conversation. Perhaps we’ll have to do a follow-up after the summer and see how the team does, see how the soccer team does, the football team rather, and come back to it, under new leadership. So thanks again for the conversation. And to our listeners, as always, you can find all of our podcasts and show notes on ccl.org. A special thank you to Emily and Ryan who work behind the scenes to make sure that our podcast happens.

Ren:

Yes, thank you.

Allison:

And to our listeners, find us on LinkedIn. Tell us what you think.

Ren:

That’s right.

Allison:

Tell us what you want us to talk about, and we’ll look forward to tuning in next time. Thanks everyone.

Ren:

Thanks everybody. See you next time. Find Allison on TikTok.