Lead With That: Bryan Johnson and the Role of Perspective in Leadership

Interview Transcript

Ren: 

Welcome back to CCL’s podcast, Lead With That, where we talk current events and pop culture to look at where leadership is happening and what’s happening with leadership.

[Siren sounds]. Not even old. The second time in a row, Allison, Manager Madness continues again where we, one by one, discuss public figures, real or fictional, randomly pitted against one another to see who comes out on top.

This time, Bryan Johnson and his search for eternal youth. I actually don’t know how much is known about this guy, but for some he’s a pioneering figure in the realm of longevity and biological enhancement. Frankly, I’ve been calling him “Bryan Johns” for many months before I realized that it’s Bryan Johnson, the founder and CEO of the company Blueprint and self-proclaimed rejuvenation athlete.

He’s gained a lot of attention recently for his pursuits of eternal youth. They’ve garnered a spectrum of reactions, from supporters hailing him as a visionary trailblazer, and detractors cautioning against the potential pitfalls of his ambitions.

Johnson, renowned for his groundbreaking research in cellular rejuvenation and anti-aging therapies, stands as a beacon of innovation in the quest for perpetual vitality. Most recently, not unlike a Bond villain … Is that a thing anymore? Do people know what Bond villains are? Anyway, Johnson has gone to a small island off the coast of Honduras to undergo a $20,000 gene therapy treatment to reverse aging, saying, “I’m traveling to a remote island for an extreme medical procedure that could change the future of humanity.” That’s my emphasis, but you get it.

Partnering with the biohacking firm Minicircle, Johnson will undergo a follistatin gene therapy. I’m pretty sure that’s how it’s pronounced. Don’t at me. And this treatment’s shown promising results in animal testing, even enabling a mouse in one study to live 30% longer than its peers after going through the therapy. As Johnson says, “I left my mother’s womb 45 years ago, and I’m biologically age hundreds of different numbers.”

So with a global audience captivated by his discoveries, Johnson has experienced both admiration and scrutiny. So, amid the optimism, ethical dilemmas and societal implications loom large. Johnson’s relentless pursuit of eternal youth raises profound questions about equity, access, and the potential ramifications of extending human lifespan. So come along, then, as we look at Bryan Johnson’s journey toward eternal youth, exploring the scientific frontiers he pushes and the moral boundaries he challenges.

Welcome back, everyone. I’m Ren Washington, and as usual, I’m joined with Allison Barr. Allison, what age would you want to be forever?

Allison:

What age would I want to be forever? Do I have a choice in this? I don’t know that I want to live forever.

Ren:

Well, you don’t have to … Yeah, okay, fine. So what age would you like to be until you die?

Allison:

Oh gosh, Ren, what age do I want to be until I die? Let’s see … 35 was pretty fun, but I’m also kind of happy where I am right now. I’m going to assume that, just because I’m that age doesn’t mean that things won’t change around me, and that, well, life won’t progress. Right?

Ren:

You’ll be like a Highlander. Yes. The things that you love will wither and die as you look 35 until your body ceases.

Allison:

That sounds awful, actually. What about you? What age do you want to be?

Ren:

I don’t really know. The reason I bring it up is because Bryan Johnson, he has 18, as one of his major markers of age or youth, and he’s always trying to recruit this biological age 18. But I don’t know if 18 would be my favorite. I feel like in my early twenties I was really vibing it, but maybe I think just … my handsomest, whatever age that is.

Allison:

Okay. Your handsomest, interesting. Say more about that. Why would you choose your handsomest?

Ren:

Oh, I mean, because I really don’t care. And I mean, living forever, like you said, sounds kind of weird, nor do I have a desperate desire to lower my age. But I mean, sure, aesthetically maybe, why not? Or I guess biologically, ooh, maybe as the handsomest my organs have ever been in their mature state.

Allison:

Yes, we are all aiming for handsome organs, Ren. Yes, life goals.

Ren:

I mean, and that’s why I think some of Bryan Johnson’s thing is interesting. Like he says, “I’m multiple biological ages,” and he kind of determines his age by organ age. And so different organs on his body are different ages. His one ear is 65 years old, but his other ear is in its 20s, and he really loves the fact that some of his organs are even younger than his 19-year-old son’s organs. And so, I don’t know, it’s kind of a wild thing once you dig into it.

Allison:

Yeah, it is. And we’ll get to it, probably. You’re making me think of what some people’s responses were when I posted to my own social media, when I knew we were going to record on Bryan Johnson, “Do you know who Bryan Johnson is? And tell me your thoughts.” And some of the comments were hilarious, and some of them were curious, and you’re leading me to one comment, which was, “that guy sounds like he has too much time and money on his hands.”

Ren:

Yeah. Well, some might say time and money well-earned. I mean, this guy does spend time and money on this, but maybe before we get into those details … pulling back a little bit, just from a high-level standpoint. From what you know about Bryan, from what you’ve researched, working for him now in his pursuit of eternal youth, what would you be excited about if you had to work for Bryan Johnson? What would you be worried about if he was your boss? 

Allison:

One of the things that I found … let me pause. Admittedly, I didn’t know who he was when we decided we were going to record an episode on him. So that is the first thing I want to confess. I didn’t have any idea who he was. So I went to his social media, I Googled him, did all the things. I read an interview with him in which, I think this was in Fortune magazine, they asked him, “What do you think about all the people who criticize you?” Because he does get some criticism. And what he said was, “I really like that they engage with me and they’re offering me perspectives that I didn’t have before. And I love it, and they speak up because they care.”

Whether or not he truly means that, I’m going to assume that he does. Having a boss who truly welcomes perspectives, I would really enjoy that. On the flip side, you asked what I might not enjoy. The environment that he’s in, the industry, rather, I would not want to reinforce the standards that he is reinforcing of that kind of company. So I would not want to work for that type of, I’m air quoting “company,” because what he does is up for debate. But you might categorize it under the wellness industry.

Ren:

Okay. I was going to ask, what do you think the company does? And so that’s an interesting idea. I don’t know if I would consider him just a prototypical capitalist. The man is incentivized by some of the biggest incentives now, which is money and beauty. And so I think probably he fashioned Blueprint, or his organization, the Blueprint Protocol, and I guess his … what did I call the business? What is it? Yeah, it’s also, the company is itself called Blueprint. I imagine he probably would fashion himself as like a scientific explorer akin to an astronaut, I bet Bryan would, if you really pressed him to it, based off of the things that I’ve heard him say.

But it’s interesting to think about the wellness. And maybe that, for me, goes into what I’d be worried about, is that … what I’d be worried about in working with this guy in pursuit of this, that I’d be perpetuating things that, I think, talk about the wrong stuff. Are we talking about eternal youth, so he can continue to cultivate wisdom for many more years, to then share it with the next generation so they don’t undergo our problems or mistakes? Or is he cultivating youth to have a 6-pack until he’s 80? It’s a worthy question. However, I would be excited to work with him to get cut in on the Blueprint Protocol for a discount. I got to imagine he’s got some stellar coupons.

Allison:

I would hope so. I mean, he spends, in theory, and he’s been interviewed and so he has said this, he spends about $2 million a year on his protocol. And so, to your point, he’s peddling eternal life. I mean, he has 4 principles of his, I would say his business, but really what his beliefs are, that we’ll get into in a minute, and one of them is to never die. Additionally, there’s an underlying message from him that if you want to be healthy or youthful, you need the money to do that. So if you are poor, or even middle class, you need not apply.

He apparently spends, like I said, $2 million per year. He takes 61 supplements a day. He fasts. He stops eating after 12:00. That kind of lifestyle … you do you, Bryan. You do you. That kind of lifestyle is not accessible to most people. And his approach and, I’m air quoting, the “research” that he does is based just on him as the test subject and only him. So I caution people, because there’s no real empirical evidence that his approach actually works for anyone else like it works for him.

Ren:

Yeah. I think you have to be an informed consumer to navigate these waters, but that’s just the reality in the American healthcare system and the wellness industry, like you said. There’s a lot of snake oil.

So he talks about sharing his stuff for free, and I think before I maybe start to poke holes in the idea, I will honor that. You, right now, could benefit from the $2 million a year that he spends in cultivating. And I think $2 million … like the paying for his doctors and all the people hours that go into the synthesis of data. But ultimately it comes out to the Blueprint Protocol, which you can find on the home page in his website, giving you a rundown of all his diet, the food that you can buy, the whatever, not assessments, but the extra materials that you can do and all of the extra supplements that you can buy to kind of do the Blueprint Protocol.

I was watching one documentary, I think it came up to maybe $1,500 a month for these 2 guys, though they couldn’t get some of it. Like, you can’t find fresh-squeezed pomegranate juice just everywhere. So I think there are some barriers to access, but some of the principles are natural raw foods, clean diet, no drugs, limited alcohol. I mean, he was drinking 4 ounces of wine but then stopped just because he couldn’t afford the calories. I think he’s logging under 2,000 calories a day. So some of this stuff, I’m kind of like, I mean you could access it principally, but maybe that’s more smoke and mirrors than real.

Allison:

And it’s just tricky. Like I said, this is based on who he is as a human being. It works for him. And again, Bryan, you do you. I think the wellness industry codes a lot of things and uses language that is nondescript. Like what is clean eating? I hear that a lot, right? Make sure you eat clean. Okay, tell me what that means. And if you’re going to say organic, for the sake, some people will say, oh, that means organic. Or some people will say, don’t eat processed foods. Okay. How realistic is that for people? And not only in the economy, the type of economy that we live in, but you could live in a food desert. You could have been born into a system where you have to work 4 jobs a day and … et cetera. We all have different life experiences.

We all have different health experiences, too. There are certain foods that might work for me, Ren, that don’t work for you, et cetera. So I just think it’s a little bit dangerous. It’s interesting, because I listened to him speak and I can see his draw. I can see the appeal. He’s welcoming, he’s kind, he’s thoughtful. He makes for a good public speaker. You want to listen to him. And I caution people because, again, what he is selling works for him.

Ren:

Yeah. And I think there’s a balance that I am really keen to continue to explore with you, because personal agency is a big thing for me. And I really believe that a lot of what ails many of us, but I’ll just talk for myself … A lot of what ails me is when I am feeling like I’m lacking my personal agency. And then often I feel resolute, or a little bit more grounded, when I’m able to maintain some personal agency. But then I think it brings up this question like, well, is agency real? You raise up some interesting questions, like what is clean eating? And I would simply say clean eating is no boxes, no wrappers, no bags. But then you raise an interesting question, well, how in the hell could you do that if you live in certain cities in America or you work 4 jobs?

Because no boxes, no bags, no wrappers means that everything’s produce, everything is fresh, everything needs to be cooked or eaten raw. And sometimes life does not afford that kind of reality. And so it is interesting, I think for Bryan Johnson … he says, this all comes down to free will, which is an irony I think, because he said some of the inspiration behind all this was he was learning how to fly, and he was in the flying plane and he turned the autopilot on and it was just super steady. And when he had the sticks in his hands, it was all wobbly and wavery, and he was like this human reaction. And he said, “Hey, how could I get myself out of the process?” And so it’s interesting, he would say, I believe in agency. And so I’ve cultivated this process so I could remove my human element from my own wellbeing. So there’s a lot of polarity images in this, I don’t know, maybe no problem, but a lot of truths.

Allison:

Yes. And where I go too, in what you just said is again, he makes for a very influential public speaker, and he’s good at it whether he’s trying to or not. He’s very measured in the way that he speaks. He never claims that this will work for everyone. I couldn’t find any evidence that he says this will work for you. He says that it might. And what you just said … gosh, I’m going to paraphrase, and please correct me. He said, taking the human element. What did he say? Taking the human element out of?

Ren:

Out of his wellbeing.

Allison:

Out of his wellbeing. What does that mean? That’s a concept that means nothing. If you say that in a public speaking, you’re trying to inspire people. “Oh, yeah.” I can see people getting jazzed by that. He has a cult-like following in LA, which does not surprise me. But okay, what does that mean?

Ren:

I think it means that if you follow his diet and you follow his plan, you, too, could have 18-year-old lungs now, like he does.

Allison:

Okay.

Ren:

I think that’s what he’s saying.

Allison:

But I think you get my point. I hope. To me he speaks in concepts that are fluffy, and they appeal to people, and they do. Whether or not he’s trying to, I don’t know, they’re preying on people’s insecurities. They’re preying on, like you said, a capitalist environment that makes a lot of money from people feeling bad about themselves. Aging is a natural thing. And personally, I just don’t want to mess with that, right? Aging is normal. We’re going to die. It creeps me a little bit. It makes me uneasy, to shoot for a target to never die. What does that … I don’t want that.

But you talked about agency. I went rogue there for a little bit. Let’s come back to that. Can you tell me what agency means? If there’s somebody who’s listening who’s never heard that word before, what does that mean?

Ren:

Making your own choices based out of your own desires.

Allison:

So, do you think that’s real?

Ren:

Well, and I think that’s an interesting question, because then you have to dig into what are your choices, and are they yours, and what are your desires, and are they yours? And it was interesting. You said that Bryan’s preying on people, and it made me think. Is he, or is he just the prey? Because Bryan doesn’t have anything … he’s rich, he’s wealthy. He’s wealthy enough to go to a secret island off of Honduras just to try something that did well in mice. He spends a lot of money, and I don’t think he’s trying to make more money. I think he might be a victim of the systems of reward that are in place: this idea of make money, make beauty, do those things or you’re not worthy.

And so then I go, okay, is agency real? And for Bryan, it’s all agency. So maybe he’s talking about the truth, that part of his human mechanisms he can’t control, so he removes them to then have no control, but all to meet the ends of the society he’s inside of. So probably, the deep philosophy of me says, no, agency is a fallacy. Free will is an illusion. Even the concept for some people isn’t even practically real. Like you said, in a food desert, I don’t have the free will to get fresh vegetables. That’s not even a choice. So the concept of, “well, take control of your health” is illegitimate. So, I’ll draw a line. No, agency is false. What do you think?

Allison:

Okay, fair. Well, I think if we simplify it to choice … and I know that’s not what you’re doing, but for the sake of the conversation, if we simplify it, do you have choice? Then there is a spectrum. Do I have a choice right now to quit my job? I don’t want to, by the way, just hypothetical. Do I have a choice to quit my job? Yes, I have a choice. Technically, of course I have a choice to do a lot of things. However, there are consequences to choices. And so the consequence to me quitting my job is very different than Bryan Johnson throwing away his business, or to the person who’s born in a food desert, for example. Very, very, very different.

And so, I think when we talk about agency, it’s important to talk about consequences. And that, to me, would be the difference. Now, you mentioned Bryan Johnson being a victim … I see where you’re coming from. And if he didn’t want to make money, if that was not his MO, then he wouldn’t have a business. Why does he have a business then?

Ren:

Well, I didn’t say he was a victim. I said he was prey.

Allison:

Tell me the difference.

Ren:

Well, I was thinking more in maybe … a predator and prey, there is no victim or victimizer. It’s a natural cycle. It is an environmental reaction. And so I don’t know if he’s … because I’m hardly here to say that this gorgeous, 18-lunged-aged individual is a victim of his own demise. I think he’s just prey to a system that … he has a job because he’s told to. He’s making money because his identity and his value are wrapped up in these concepts. He’s desperate to stay young and pretty forever because he likely has never … Well, I don’t know. I think that that is a manufactured, emblematic existence of our American Western culture: youth, beauty, and money. So, he’s not a victim; I think he’s just prey to the incentive and reward structure that we inhabit.

Allison:

Yes. Thank you for clarifying. And pardon me for misspeaking or misquoting you. What’s interesting is to me, though, in addition to what you said, is that his 4 principles are to not die, which is what you hear of most when you hear or look into what he’s doing. The second one is don’t kill each other. The third is don’t destroy the planet. And the last one is don’t underestimate aligning with AI, which I think is interesting.

And so what I’m curious about is his principle to not destroy the planet. And one might argue that as a billionaire, if that was truly his principle and mission, that he could be doing some things differently with the resources that he has to not destroy the planet. Maybe he is; maybe I hadn’t found that. I did Google to see what kind of sustainability he was contributing to. Couldn’t find much, couldn’t find anything. So if it’s out there, and I haven’t found it, my apologies, but I didn’t see anything that he’s doing that supports that principle.

Ren:

Well, I mean, he’s investing in the biggest sustainability project ever. Life. No, yeah. I don’t know. It is interesting. I mean, he reminds me … it’s like the Bruce Wayne / Batman thing. He’s this uber-wealthy billionaire, and instead of spending his money on just feeding, like, a few thousand children every day and trying to build their neighborhood up to not be in food deserts, to have access to the stuff he’s talking about. Instead of creating infrastructure like that, he’s in his bat cave trying to get younger.

So there is an irony; but again, I think I have perspective, and maybe our job gives us that, is that I look at that and I shrug my shoulders. The realist in me goes, I can’t be angry at a man for doing exactly what he’s been trained and conditioned to do. And then maybe that’s sort of what the problem is that we started with is, you were fearful for working for him, is that doesn’t this perpetuate the kind of conditioning where we value eternal youth projects over making our neighborhoods safer?

Allison:

Right. Yeah. I mean, so I’m in Colorado Springs, and what immediately comes to mind is that the unhoused population here has grown significantly, continues to grow. And so, by Bryan Johnson’s MO, am I to tell somebody who is unhoused and struggling, to drink olive oil and take 61 pills and whatever, get a blood transfusion, which he did. He transfused some of his blood with his 17-year-old son, which I have a whole lot of questions about regardless. It’s irresponsible, in a way. And he’s very … again, I’m saying this as a fact, not as a judgment. By the way, clarifying. I’m not angry with him. I’m not angry at all. But he posits that everything that he does is very individual in nature.

So again, factually speaking, it’s centered on self. And I don’t mean self-centered in a judgment way. I just mean very literally it’s centered on you as an individual, where a lot of obstacles that people face that cause them to decline in health are systemic. And so, it’s just not accessible to people. It’s just not. And so I do, again, I understand the draw. I understand why he has this cult-like following, because he’s found the secret. He has. And if you don’t investigate how he’s gotten there, it’s very appealing. It’s very, very appealing. And have you heard much about his mini-mini-feud with Elon Musk? 

Ren:

No, I don’t think I have.

Allison:

Well, Elon Musk was criticizing him. This is a few years old now, but I thought it was just interesting, an interesting juxtaposition of 2 billionaires in how they approach things. Elon Musk was criticizing him, and he was asked what his response was with regard to the criticism. And Bryan Johnson said, the difference between me and Elon Musk, I will nourish you and drink your blood while he will fire you and leave you to die. So I thought that was an interesting statement to make. What’s your thought to that?

Ren:

I feel like Bryan’s right on time with any idea of if he’s a monster or a vampire. Probably not the best line though. I feel like vampires aren’t as popular as they used to be. Drink your blood. And I do remember you mentioning that phrase to me before, and now I think my second pass at it, maybe he means that he cares about you enough to consume your essence for his betterment. Surely that’s what he means.

Allison:

Surely, surely.

Ren:

That’s weird. That’s weird.

Allison:

I care about you so much, Ren, I want to drink your blood.

Ren:

Yeah, I don’t want to judge anybody, but that seems like a strange comment. Yeah, I mean, I guess maybe it’s the many shades of truth, because he’s not wrong. We’ve talked about the issues at Tesla and how that’s a lot of inhumane treatment. What’s more humane, someone trying to solve aging or someone who is going to fire you by a robot boss?

But I think, too, you highlighted … yeah, there might be a truth that he’s trying to do something that might make a difference for some people, that might change humanity, like he says. But for whom? You’re right about it. I think about Colorado Springs, and I think … I was just driving underneath our highway, I-25, and under the underpass turning onto it. And like in many major cities or nearly major cities, it’s a place where those who don’t have much find space to gather with one another.

And I think, yeah, what would it look like for me to walk over there and say, “Here’s a month of the Blueprint for free. In order to maintain it, though, you’ve gotta cobble together $1,500 a month going forward.” Who is going to live forever? If you’re listening right now, it’s like, if you’re the owner of your organization, they seem to be the prime candidates to access the Blueprint Protocol. And I’m like, what does it look like if our bosses never died? What kind of future does that have?

Allison:

That’s fair? Yes, that’s fair. And I just also want to highlight, again, some of the things he does, not in criticism, but just in fact so that people can understand. The amount of wealth that this man has affords him a lot of different things. For example, he goes to bed at 8:00 pm. I think he aims to sleep 9 hours a day, I think. If I’m mistaken on that, I apologize. But he does aim to really have good sleep hygiene, which is also something that we talk about in a much different way with regard to wellness and caring for oneself, right?

Sleep is important. We can all agree on that, but who has that access? And Bryan Johnson specifically, for a period of time, spent 30 minutes a day sitting on top of an electromagnetic machine to strengthen his pelvic floor, because his need to use the bathroom at night was interfering with his sleep. So I am only saying that because, A, I don’t even know if that works. But, B, also, just for the sake of us understanding … this contraption, and I quote, “feels like 2 small hands repeatedly punching you in the sensitive region in quick succession, typically for women who were hoping to rebuild strength after birth … Johnson wanted to use it to strengthen his pelvic floor to prevent himself from urinating frequently.”

Ren:

Sounds like he has a 56-year-old prostate. It seems like it’s not working that well for him.

Allison:

I mean, maybe. But the point is, what Bryan Johnson is doing is likely not accessible to most of us. And he has play money to … this might be something that works, it might be something that doesn’t work, who knows. But most of us are just trying to get our work done in time to eat dinner; to say hello to maybe our roommate, family, neighbors, whatever, what have you; get some fresh air; and hopefully get 6 hours of sleep. While, I think, what is it? 75% to 80% of leaders right now wake up in the middle of the night due to rumination from stress because of their jobs. So it’s just a little, a lot, unrealistic.

Ren:

Yeah. Well that last comment around waking up in the middle of the night about your job might be a different podcast, around self-importance and managing that. I think if anyone thinks they’re self-important, it’s Bryan. Bryan thinks he’s really important for humanity. I think leaders think they’re often too important for an organization that I think, you often aptly say, will very quickly think of them objectively, which is to say, they are just another piece of the machine.

And so I guess, then, my reaction that I’m starting to dig up here is this idea of, aren’t we just products of our environment? Aren’t we just continually doing the things that we think we ought to? Bryan Johnson and his pelvic floor stimulator … I feel like we’re going to get flagged for adult content here, but it’s like an impulse buy. It’s like you said, he’s got play money. He’s at the end of the counter. He just went to his $20,000 gene therapy, and they’re like, “Oh, hey, we also got this nice little other thing that punches you in the genitals very softly for a few minutes.” I’m like, all right. This guy’s like, “Sure, sounds interesting. I’ve been peeing in the middle of the night and I got to stop that.”

It’s like, but how driven is this guy? And now we dig into it. How driven is this guy at all by his own choices? That’d be really interesting. You know what I haven’t heard about? His therapy team. Where are the psychologists and other people that are talking to him about … why do you want this? And to what end? Yeah.

Allison:

“To what end” is interesting, too. But if I could, can I ask you to clarify, and you said this might be another podcast, but I want to clarify because I may have misunderstood what you were saying about self-importance and rumination somehow being parallel.

Ren:

Well, I think part of what I might see in professionals when they ruminate, which is to say, thinking over and over again about something negatively that kind of perpetuates more stress, is … a colleague of ours, Pete Ronayne in our Burn Bright resilience stuff, awesome guy, brilliant dude … And he said this thing to me that stuck with me forever. He’s like, “I’m going to go on vacation, and I’m not talking to anybody, and I’m going to challenge the myth of my own indispensability.” I think we look around, and we walk around, and we treat ourselves like, well what if I’m not here, what would happen? I kind of shrug my shoulders. Like, the exact same thing that happened before you were here.

So I think sometimes leaders get too wrapped up in their own role in things, and that’s part of what they ruminate about. And I think personally, self-importance is a hot button for me. It’s something that in personal and interpersonal and professional relationships, I know I lose some emotional regulation. And so when I see that, or see players like Bryan Johnson talking about, “I’m going to go to this island. That’s going to change humanity.” It’s like Oppenheimer and Truman talking about who changed the world. And how many millions of people have to die to prove it. It’s interesting. That one might be a bridge too far, but anyway.

Allison:

I bring that up, and I understand what you’re saying now. And I want to clarify for our listeners, too, that rumination does not always mean self-importance.

Ren:

No. Yeah, absolutely.

Allison:

And I’m only saying that because there are very severe mental health illnesses that cause rumination. Some of them not severe. Some people have OCD. Right? You can’t control your thoughts. I’m only saying that because I don’t want anyone to hear that if you can’t sleep at night and you ruminate, it means you’re self-important, which I know is not what you’re saying, Ren, but I don’t want you to be a soundbite. I know that’s not what you’re saying. Okay. But anyhow, I digress on that. Thanks for clarifying. And I want to come back to what you said too about earlier Bryan Johnson going to Honduras, was that right, for his —

Ren:

Yeah, it’s a small island off the coast.

Allison:

Whatever. I know where it is. Thank you.

Ren:

No, not Honduras. The island that he’s going to.

Allison:

Oh, okay. Thank you. So I read a little bit about that this morning. I think the first time we talked about Bryan Johnson, I don’t know if this is a new story. I don’t know, but I just became privy to that too. And what I thought was interesting too, again, perspective taking, right? This is a very important leadership skill, is the [ability] to look at all sides of things and take different perspectives, because people on this island are being displaced, and people on this island are calling it a billionaire’s playground, and resources are being taken. So again, you just had a quote that made me think of that, right? Because it’s to what cost?

The way that Bryan Johnson speaks, it seems genuine, and it does seem like he believes that he’s doing the right thing. It seems that way. However … consequences, right? There are consequences to your choices. And are you focused on you as an individual? Are you at all focused on the collective? Are you at all focused on humanity? Because there are costs to being so individualistic in nature, and one of them is the resources that he and, I suppose, other billionaires are taking from this island.

Ren:

Yeah. Well, it makes me want to dig in more into the organization that works there, and Lord knows why it’s just off the coast of some country like that, because of maybe regulations. But Minicircle, it does feel strange, about this group of oligarchs trying to find how to extend their existence. But some of what you made me think there is … so we talk about, is agency real? And we’ve talked about this before too. Is altruism real? Or does it matter if altruism is real? Does someone have to do something for altruistic means to then make a positive impact on the world?

And I guess I could see, in the potential or in the polarity of it all, that a synthesis of certain vitamins, minerals, diet that could indeed strengthen your eyes, your heart, your lungs, your liver. These are important human questions, especially in an American system where our diet is trying to kill us every day. That maybe if someone looked at that and said, I can’t do it all, but I could do that mushroom quinoa dish he does every day, that’s not impossible. And I always say, what if we make one impact on one person’s life, then we’re doing our job. And what if he changes one person’s life? Then would it be worth it? I don’t know.

Allison:

I don’t know either. Right? And I went down a rabbit hole too, which I’ll try not to take us down. But doing well, doing good for others, is also subjective. Bryan Johnson’s ideas started from a mission trip in which he was so inspired to revive humanity and save humanity, and his intentions sound lovely. And there’s criticism too. I want to be careful because this is not, I am not saying this, I am saying there’s wide criticism from some around mission trips as well, doing the opposite of what they intend to do. So it’s tricky. It’s just tricky. How do you navigate that? I don’t have the answer, but what I think is doing well, doing good might be different from you, Ren.

Ren:

Yeah, undoubtedly. And there might be moments where it happens to align perfectly, and then there might be moments where it doesn’t, and then all of a sudden we’re looking at each other baffled, like, I thought we were aligned utterly. Our values were so perfectly synced right there. And wasn’t it interesting, I think, I don’t know, how do you ground this conversation back into your lived experience, listener, whether you’re eating or pursuing your own eternal youth, or whether you’re just trying to work with someone who might be really self-important. But that’s an interesting question, Allison, around maybe just … and again, it’s like it’s a major theme for me, just investigating the righteousness of our own perspectives, but then also being willing to seek others so we can add to our perspective. 

Allison:

Yeah, it’s a tricky balance, polarity, whatever you’d like to call it. And I think if I could ground us in something tangible that leaders might take, it is around that perspective taking. I was struck by Bryan Johnson’s comment around, “I welcome these comments. It means that people care.” And I think he’s onto something there. Now I’m not talking about those folks who name-call and bully. That’s not what I’m talking about, especially on the interwebs. However, at the workplace, especially if you are a leader, stepping back and asking for feedback and taking perspective, and even for those of you who might have employees that tend to complain, there’s usually a request or something that’s cared about within that complaint.

And so I think it might be worth investigating, for you as a leader, to ask your teams, ask those who you manage, what’s not being said that we should talk about? Or what am I not considering here with this? What perspective do you have? Especially when we are in an environment right now where things are changing quickly and so fast that we often don’t even realize it. With AI, with supply chain, with global shakeups and global obstacles that are impacting our business, it is very important to be able to step back and take a perspective.

What might you leave our listeners with today, Ren?

Ren:

Well, it’s interesting. The pursuit of perspective … because it wraps me around, again, the agency conversation that we had. And one thing I didn’t say yet, and just a couple small quotes that really got my head spinning around in this documentary was, in summation, this guy and his editor went through the Blueprint Protocol for a month. They lost some weight, they got healthier. They were like, I could do some of this, though I couldn’t do all of it. But the reflection was like, what does it look like? What does the world look like when we make the best choices? What does it mean for our health or happiness when we’re no longer making decisions out of desperation or an impulse? Now even the richest man in the world, trying to be young, bought an impulse pelvic floor machine. I mean, maybe not impulse, but he seems pretty impulsive when you talk about it. He just goes to the next thing, like this could work, this could work.

I don’t know if any of us are free of desperation or impulse. And so maybe, if it’s not too esoteric for you, as you start to collect or try to keep perspective, try to log your feelings of desperation, try to log your feelings of impulse. Recognize and maybe put a little space between you and the lizard brain. Because I think so much of our reactions are … And, like rumination, it’s this flight-or-fight, it’s this animal response. I think that’s really what Bryan’s doing. It’s a long-term, animalistic reaction. “I don’t want to die. I want to stay together. I want to stay alive forever.” And so he’s like a fear-based animal almost, despite his calm response. And so even if you’re doing something perfect for yourself, maybe just log this idea of desperation, or impulse, or even frustration — if you can hear people walking around above me, I’m in my new studio, so. Just, you know, log what you’re feeling, and then move forward.

Allison:

Yes, and I’ll leave you with one comment that came from my social media, that I also think is a translation to leadership. Somebody commented when I asked, “Do you know who he is? What are your thoughts?” Someone commented, “I really like that he’s transparent about what he does, especially to his face and body. At least he is honest. So many people are not, and it makes the rest of us feel like we’re doing something wrong by not looking the way that he looks.” So transparency. Again, we’re talking about somebody who’s changing the way that he looks, which is different from leadership for the most part, but transparency and honesty will go a long way with those folks that you manage, I would presume.

So I think, Ren, this was an interesting conversation, and Bryan Johnson continues to evolve, and who knows what he might be up to next, what country he might be going to? I suppose we can maybe come back to him in a year and see what’s happening.

In the meantime, to our listeners, thanks for tuning in. Let us know what you think. What are your thoughts on Bryan Johnson? What do you think about his 4 principles? You can find us on LinkedIn. Let us know your thoughts. Let us know what you want us to talk about next. And a big thank you to our CCL team who works behind the scenes to get our podcasts up and running. One more thing to our listeners, you can find all of our episodes and show notes on ccl.org, and we will look forward to tuning in the next time. Thanks everyone.

Ren:

Thanks Allison. Thanks everybody. See you next time. Find Allison eternally young on TikTok.