Lead With That: Leadership Lessons from “The Office”

Interview Transcript

INTRO:  

Welcome back to CCL’s podcast, Lead With That. We talk current events in pop culture to look at where leadership is happening and what’s happening with leadership. That’s right, Allison. It’s Manager Madness, where we, one by one, discuss public figures real and fictional, randomly pitted against one another to see who comes out on top. 

Ren:

This time: the leaders of “The Office.” Yep, today we navigate through the quirky corridors of Dunder Mifflin Scranton, and we encounter a variety of those characters whose contrasting styles shape the dynamics of the workplace and our hearts. At the forefront, Michael Scott, the well-intentioned, yet often misguided regional manager whose leadership is marked by a weird blend of charisma and incompetence. Michael’s desire though to be loved, and maybe less so respected, by his employees often leads him astray and he prioritizes popularity over productivity. But despite his flaws, I think we all grew to love Michael, and his occasional flashes of insight and genuine care for his team really showcased his potential.

Now, on the other opposite end of that spectrum, or somewhere on that continuum, Dwight Schrute, the eccentric assistant to the regional manager. Dwight, the fiercely loyal and his style rooted in rigid adherence to rules and tradition, Dwight was pretty unwavering in his commitment to the company and his own success, and that sometimes clashed with Michael, but always clashed with Jim and his presence in “The Office.” And that’s right. Jim Halpert, our favorite giant, the charming and laid-back salesman. His subtle and effective style stand in contrast to Michael and Dwight a little bit.

Jim’s ability to navigate the office politics, his knack for diffusing some tension with humor really made him a good informal leader, but when we saw him get some leadership, maybe we learned that sometimes Jim’s quirks didn’t always work, and so “The Office” was always good at reminding us that this was really a story about people in a complex work environment, in a complex world environment. Today, Allison and I get to dig into some of our favorite characters and our favorite moments on our favorite show. Welcome back, everyone. I’m Ren Washington, and as usual, I’m joined with Allison Barr. Allison, if you had to work in Dunder Mifflin Scranton, what would you be excited about? What would you be worried about?

Allison:

Well, I can tell you I would not be excited about working in Scranton, Pennsylvania. I grew up in Pennsylvania, so I know that town just doesn’t suit my values that well. I would be excited because … What would I be excited about? I think the environment mostly seemed low-stress. In terms of work though Michael sometimes brought some personal stresses to “The Office,” but in terms of the general environment there, it seemed a bit low-stress, and they had some events that seemed to be fun, and they had great camaraderie amongst most of that team there, with a few exceptions. And what would I be worried about? Well, you didn’t really see much strong leadership throughout that. I watched the whole thing, by the way, start to finish.

Ren:

You think so?

Allison:

Yeah, there were moments, and everybody got their job done, and they performed as a company. Even when they were not performing, they found ways to turn it around. But this is something we talk about sometimes. I don’t know that I would feel that inspired to be at that workplace. What about you?

Ren:

You and I agree. I’d probably be most excited about the low stakes nature of it all. There’s something functionally enjoyable about having finite projects. Now, and maybe not everyone does, because there were salespeople and they have ever-evolving tasks, but it seems that it’s pretty low stakes. I’d probably be worried about the org structure around Dunder Mifflin —

Allison:

Yes.

Ren:

— that led to its being sold to the various kooky characters, then eventually where it ended up with Sabre, but even then, it was kind of like this idea that the freedom “The Office” was given because they were succeeding in this tiny bubble was also the very thing that was going to necessitate its destruction. We sell paper in a really small city, and we’re luckily to be connected because our margins are good. We aren’t going to really focus on the business part of this sitcom. So, probably excited about the low stakes, probably worried that I wouldn’t have a job.

Allison:

That’s fair. I also think I would be excited about … they all seem … Again, I’m talking about a TV show, but they all seem to have oodles of discretional time, which I know a lot of people do not when it comes to their workload and such. So, I think I would be excited about that, too. It seems like there would be maybe an easier work-life integration happening in that kind of environment, which I think Jim ended up doing quite well, which we can come back to, but I would be excited about that.

Ren:

Well, let’s go there right now, and something that you said in the beginning was really interesting. You said that there weren’t really instances of good leadership throughout the show, and I thought, huh, I don’t know if I fully understand your take. Maybe then I might fully believe it or agree with it, but I don’t know, in the very least, we could debate it. So I don’t know, do you want to start to Jim and say a little bit more about what you just alluded to, or maybe you could give us a frame of reference, like what kind of good leadership would you be expecting?

Allison:

Well, I think the underlying theme for me as we start to talk about this is that there’s no perfect leader. So that’s the one thing, there’s no such thing. You cannot be the perfect leader for everybody, I do believe that. And I think also, this might be a little deep, but I’m going to go there anyway. Jim is a good example to me of, also, someone who makes some mistakes, but showcasing that not many people are inherently bad. There’s not really anybody who is inherently bad.

Let me give you an example. He’s fun-loving. Everybody loves Jim. And when I watched it, this was a long time ago when I watched it, and I was a devoted Office fan, I like many people loved Jim, and I probably still do, but he’s a curious one to me because he’s fun-loving, he gets his job done, sometimes he can bring the group together when needed, but some might argue he’s a bit of a bully. I will admit that April Fool’s Day is my favorite holiday and that I have played office pranks on … Dustin, if you’re listening, I’m sorry, the things that we did to each other’s office, but the thing is it was never impeded our work, and we had an understanding, a bit of a friendship. Dwight and Jim eventually did, but some of the things that he did to Dwight are questionable. If you’re an HR listener, you probably would not even say they were questionable, you’d say they’re outright bullying.

Ren:

Well, especially early days, and yeah, it’s funny when I think about Michael Scott, the pilot episode for the US Office, Michael Scott, Steve Carell, was wearing exactly what Ricky Gervais was, so not in his typical Michael Scott suit, but just like the white shirt with the tie, the sleeves rolled up, and Michael Scott, if any of you look back at the pilot, was a much more callous, rude version of the “nice rude” he turned into. And so, I think there’s probably something around when it was and the time it was filmed, because there’s probably a lot we could talk about around this kind of male-dominated, patriarchal environment where Jim and Dwight can engage in behavior that normally would be where you wouldn’t want to, but I guess you could kind of be like, well, those are boys being boys. I think there’s probably like, we have to suspend some disbelief because of the nature of the show, but also I think kind of the nature of the relationship.

I would agree, I think the best cold open ever in the whole show was when they were in Florida and Jim woke up early, because he just had the kids, and so he is on early time and he’s like, “Well, I want to mess with Dwight,” and so he sets up his room to make it look like Jim was “unalived” and then made it look like Dwight did it. And so, there’s this kind of interesting back-and-forth banter for them, but something about, you said he’s a good example of someone either demonstrating that people aren’t perfect or maybe learning from some of their mistakes. And is there a particular instance when you saw that show up, or a particular moment that you thought was really an interesting like, damn, that’s a good fave Jim leadership moment?

Allison:

I think there are probably several. So, they had some interim managers. I’m not remembering what season that started, but they had some interim managers when, I think Will Ferrell was there for a minute. It was hilarious, and it was Jim usually who got people on the same page. It was Jim usually who was the voice of reason, “Look, we’re going through a lot of change. We’ll get through it together. I know this isn’t great right now.”

He was a truth teller, but also was able to listen to people and understand their concerns when it came down to it. He of course had a lot of fun, too, and some might argue, by if we only focus on what we saw on the show, that he didn’t actually get that much work done, but he did enroll people well. And when Michael Scott hit Meredith with his car, I don’t know if you remember that episode, it was Jim who really rallied everybody, him and Pam, to get “get well” cards for her, and to go visit her, and really be a support of somebody in the team who was hospitalized. So, I do think there are some good examples. He knew how to rally people, and bring people together, and speak the truth to what’s happening: I know this happening and we’ll get through it.

Ren:

I think Jim is probably how our anchor in the show is supposed to be, and that’s why we have a relationship with him. He looks at us more than any other character looks at us, in the flow of things, and he’s kind of like, “Whoa, is anyone else seeing this?” And so, it is something I think, that they’re kind of easy to like, and I think they’re built to be liked, but I think something you said about Jim, too, is they’re built to be human.

I thought an interesting arc that Jim went through was, he’d been our hero for so many reasons, and it’s almost like that ability where you’re not in formal leadership, you have this freedom to be liked. You’re like the uncle. You’re cool, but you don’t have to be disciplinarian. And we do work in systems thinking … power in systems. I know we’ve talked about it before on the podcast and this idea of systems thinking, the organization workshop, and discovery that we can put people into these roles, and they’re going to react the exact same way, no matter who they are.

And it has nothing to do with them, and it has everything to do with them in the role. And so, I like when they put Jim into the workspace, all of a sudden he became a manager, and then he was dealing with tensions that managers have to deal with, that his former friends and colleagues wouldn’t know. And there were a couple of instances where he tried to do something that he thought was easy, “Why wouldn’t we do this?” And it blew up in his face.

“We’ll just celebrate everybody’s birthday.” And then it doesn’t work, and he’s sitting there, and then Michael comes and he’s sitting next to him, and Jim’s like, “Damn, I thought I was doing something good here,” and Michael goes, “Yeah, first year I tried to do that, too.” And it’s just funny, too, even the leaders that we look at and we go, “Man, they’re not really working, or they’re not really doing it well,” they’ve got a lot of wisdom to share, and it’s funny, that moment, too, where you saw that Michael, as inept as he might be, that job’s not super easy, and I think Jim was learning that.

Allison:

Definitely. And I think too, what was interesting to me about Jim, and I don’t remember what season is, but he leaves Dunder Mifflin and works for, I think, it was a sports marketing agency or something like that.

Ren:

He and his friend, and they were building it together, and the guy from the warehouse. Damn, I forgot his name. I’ll remember it.

Allison:

Darryl?

Ren:

Yes.

Allison:

Darryl. I love Darryl. Well, regardless, so Jim leaves, he works for the sports marketing agency. At some point in time, he and Pam, they get married and they have a baby. And Pam is juggling a lot, she gets a promotion. And to simplify, what happens is that Jim becomes overwhelmed at his job, he sort of realizes how good he had it at Dunder Mifflin. There’s an episode where he really snaps at Pam, because Pam was supposed to record their daughter’s dance recital, and she forgot to hit record or something little happened, and Jim had to miss it, because he was at work.

Ren:

He was working.

Allison:

And he snaps at Pam, and that was one moment for me where I was like, “Ooh, Jim.” Like, “Oh, come on, Jim.” And then he realizes he’s really taken his relationship not only to his wife for granted, but the relationship that he had with his coworkers at Dunder Mifflin, the life that he had there, and what became important to him was no longer important to him. So, he goes back to Dunder Mifflin after he figures out what matters to him the most, and he really finds ways to integrate his work into his life, and that was his priority. That’s not everybody’s, right? His priority is his wife and kids, and he finds a way to better integrate that into his work, which is a great lesson. That’s a reality; that happens frequently.

Ren:

Well, and see, you’re getting to sort of … When I read that, I don’t know if he so much realized like, “Wow, I missed Dunder Mifflin,” though I think he did. The way I internalized that change for him was Pam.

Allison:

That’s what I mean.

Ren:

Pam and the kids.

Allison:

That’s what I think.

Ren:

You echoed that right there at the end, and I think he went through that value where he recognized to himself, “This is what’s important to me.” And then, too, I know we talk about this a lot, but if you’re listening, I can’t implore you enough that sometimes our values like, well, the “shoulds” and the “oughts,” I have to be an entrepreneur, I have to have my own company, they create this feeling of desire where maybe we should be cultivating contentment, that if you care about something, and that’s in your hands and you’ve got a family, you don’t have to feel badly about that.

Or if you’re not “building an empire” because it’s “grind nation” out there and you’re not a finance bro, well, maybe you don’t have to be. And so, I thought that was really interesting that he recognized his own needs, and identified what was important to him, and then made the transition. And I think that’s really interesting, too, and maybe it reminds me of something that Michael did in one of my favorite Michael moments, but I don’t want to move away from Jim if you’ve got more in this moment, though. I know we can always come back to him.

Allison:

Well, the only plane to land is alluding to what you mentioned, is understanding work means to you, what you value. It’s also okay if your top value is your career, that is okay. But understanding what you value most, and how your career and how your work can support those things that you value. Because he was able to have that discretionary time with his wife. He was able to be in the office with her, to connect with her, to have that time with her outside of work. Because his other job, the sports marketing job, while he thought it was glamorous, ate up a lot more of his time, gave him a lot of stress, and ultimately impacted his relationship in a negative way. So, finding ways that your work can work for you to support your values.

Ren:

To stay there a bit longer, it’s interesting, because I think, too, the added complexity for Jim was, that’s my dream. I get to work in sports marketing. I’m a sports guy. I get to be next to all these things. And I know all of us go through that wave, where it ebbs and flows all the time, where we either come up to our dream or we get our dream, and then we start to say, “Well, what am I if I let go of this dream? Or what if I don’t pursue that anymore? Aren’t I my failures? Aren’t I my successes?” And I think Jim really had to work through around that question we ask people all the time, what does success look like for you? And so, you’ve always got to be doing that work for yourself, and it seemed like, at least from Jim being the kind of perpetual character that we could get behind, he was doing that work.

Now, I don’t know if Michael Scott was always doing that work, but I think Michael was always pure in his intentions, what he valued. And one of my favorite Michael moments was when he bought Pam’s art of the building of Dunder Mifflin. Where Pam invited everyone to her showing at the art … What the hell is it called? Why am I not thinking of this? The art something, an art show, but what’s it?

Gallery. Geez, I’m fancy. And no one comes, and she’s super-duper discouraged, and Michael has that way of reminding you that it’s okay, man, you’re loved, you’re cared about, and that is a symbol of our community. I love that, and she thought he was messing with her, and so he buys it and it’s hanging up in their office, and he looks at it with such reverence. And I think he probably reveres … Michael might be a good example of best intentions, or assuming the best of someone, even when they’re clumsily crushing things around themselves.

Allison:

Yes, there are a couple standout moments for me too around Michael, and one is when Angela’s cat dies … Well, when Sprinkles dies. And I think Pam is consoling Angela or something, and Michael walks by and says, “What’s going on? What’s wrong?” And Pam says, “Angela’s cat died,” and he’s crushed, “Not Sprinkles. Sprinkles?” He’s so personally invested, and he’s so caring for Angela in a time where she’s absolutely devastated, where most people wouldn’t … You might give some condolences at the office, but most people wouldn’t respond the way he did. Whether or not it’s healthy, it’s up for debate, but he does show his care for his people. And another funny moment, he was always trying to be friends with Ryan. Well, he’s trying to be friends with all of them, but ultimately he just wanted Ryan’s buy-in so badly.

Ren:

True.

Allison:

And there’s a scene where he’s sitting in his office with Ryan and he says, “I’m a friend first, and your boss second, and obviously third an entertainer.” It’s just so funny how he is so honest. And one thing that he does prove, I think though, is that strong relationships within an organization can make your organization stronger. And he does make some mistakes, but people assume best intentions to him, for him, and while he avoided many, many difficult conversations and put other people up to doing them for him, he ultimately has a bit of a professional maturity when he has a bit of a moment with Stanley. Do you remember that episode where Stanley’s doing his crossword puzzle in one of the meetings, and Michael keeps saying, “Stanley —”

Ren:

Did I stutter?

Allison:

Yes, and Michael’s face just kind of goes ghostly pale, and eventually he sits down with Stanley and says, “You cannot talk to me like that. I’m your boss.” And Stanley says, “Fair enough,” and that’s that. And there’s a moment of him where you see just a slight little maturity in his leadership, and he’s very proud, and he’s definitely a people-pleasing type of manager, but that was a moment for me where he grew.

Ren:

It’s interesting, when I start to explore, there’s a couple of things that pop up for me around, and you alluded to it at the top, were there good signs of leadership? And presumably Michael Scott, he’s the formal leader of the building, and we kind of know that he’s painted as such. He’s the head manager, whatever that means. But one of my favorite bits ever is when they all change the clocks in the office and he’s sleeping. Michael Scott, he didn’t have just 1 chicken pot pie, he had 2, and now he’s taking a nap. And they change all the clocks, and then 1, 2, 3, they make a big laugh and he wakes up, he walks out. He’s like, “What’s so funny?” And someone’s like, “Oh, you had to be there.” And he goes, “Oh, geography jokes. I love them,” but then he’s like, “Oh, look, at the time.” I think that’s the best fit ever, what a good response to you had to be there.

But then he looks at the clock, “Oh, it’s 5 o’clock.” And he’s like, “All right, everyone get out of here.” And you think, this is the environment that is also the only branch of Dunder Mifflin that is selling any paper, that’s doing any good work, but that’s part of the storyline. And so they bring them up to New York, “How are you doing it?” And I always tell leaders at the heights of their organization, but also anyone who’s listening a little bit lower, part of your job is to always articulate what you’re good at and why and how. And they’re asking Michael, “How do you do it?” He’s kind of like, “Well …” He doesn’t really know what the hell he’s doing that creates the positive environment. And so I wonder, you talk about there’s some high points where relationships make up for a lot, but maybe it’s just super high performers, or maybe we need to look at the sales people and their relationships, because they’re the ones keeping the doors open. And I  just wonder, did they succeed because of Michael, or in spite of Michael?

Allison:

Probably both, don’t you think?

Ren:

Probably both.

Allison:

They’re also given quite a bit of autonomy, it seems, in their jobs, and the way that Dwight goes about selling is quite different than your Jims or, was Phyllis was in sales? I can’t remember, but they go about it quite differently, which is normal in a sales type, I think, but I think you’re probably right, where it was a little bit in spite of him, but also he gives them a lot of freedom to do their job, because he’s maybe too hands-off, and we’d be remiss if we didn’t talk about Dwight. What are your thoughts about Dwight?

Ren:

Well, you’re talking about how Dwight’s sales tactics are different. Oh my God, are his leadership tactics different.

Allison:

Yes.

Ren:

One of my favorite, again, bits from there is when Dwight’s getting ready to do some talk at a sales conference —

Allison:

Oh my gosh, this is one of mine, too, but you go first.

Ren:

And then Jim, he’s like, “Oh, read these prompts.” It’s like the way Mussolini gave speeches, and so he’s prepping it and it really works for him, but I think it’s so funny for Dwight’s character, because he sort of plays that hard angle. When he was the manager, or when he buys the building, there’s so many good bits. But maybe before we go doing on that, you said you really liked that kind of Mussolini moment, too?

Allison:

Yes, because well, everything that you said is hilarious, but also, this is actually a really great leadership lesson that I might share more often because … If you haven’t seen the episode, he goes to give a speech at some sort of conference, I presume it’s a paper convention or something like that, and he’s so dramatic and almost dictator-like in the way that he speaks to this group. And he’s also very, very passionate. And the audience is kind of slow to clap, and then they get going, and he gets more engaged and sort of filled with energy. And the more passionate he gets, the more engaged the group gets, and by the end, they’re cheering him on. And it’s a good lesson and something that we talk about at CCL, when we talk about presentation skills, that your enthusiasm for the content is what people will latch onto the most.

So people will say, “I need to have the best PowerPoint slides, need to be clear.” That’s important, too, if you have those slides or whatnot. The materials are less important. It’s how you present it and how authentically engaged you are with that content that you are sharing. So, I think that’s such a great lesson. But another thing with Dwight is, I don’t know if you’ll remember this, Michael couldn’t choose a healthcare plan at one point. He just couldn’t do it, because he realized that some people would be paying more, it wouldn’t impact people the same way. So, he puts Dwight up to it, and Dwight picks the absolute worst one that’s not cost-effective at all. And it wasn’t until he gets everybody into the room and they’re all sort of berating Michael, “Why did you pick this plan?” And Michael said, “Well, Dwight picked it,” and there’s a reaction that Dwight has on his face when he realizes the impact that he’s had on people’s lives. That’s a little bit telling. You see a bit softer side of Dwight.

Ren:

There’s something earnest about Dwight. Remember when Dwight has the concussion and he’s being super nice to Pam?

Allison:

Yes.

Ren:

And they’re like, “Something’s wrong with Pam,” because I think he bumped his head earlier in that episode or something, that morning on his car, I don’t know what happened, but there was something like … We talk about this idea of interpersonal dynamics in workspaces, like being authentic and being caring, and I have this debate with people all the time. I would rather you be authentically uncaring than unauthentically caring. And I think for Dwight, what you can always count on him to do is, he doesn’t deviate from his true north. Dwight is not a flip-flopper. If you know what Dwight cares about, you know it’s like, bears, beets, Battlestar Galactica, let’s do it. And I think he’s sort of a really straight shooter. And the more you work with him, and I think the more people befriended him …

And then you started to see how … I love when Dwight goes with Jim to sell, even though all their beef, they’re a really great team, because they empower each other, they make each other better. And so, it’s really interesting to think, some of that you’re alluding to, how earnest Dwight is, that he knows as a patriarch of a farm and a family himself, I think he recognizes implicitly that he’s got people to care for, and at his best, you can count on Dwight. You’ve always counted on him to be Dwight, but the best you can count on him to look out for you.

Allison:

Yes, I think he’s with Jim, and they’re trying to pitch to a new client, and it’s not going super well, and Dwight eventually steps in and says something like, “I will be at your beck and call. I’m never late. I never take sick days. I never get sick. I don’t celebrate any holidays, ever. I don’t celebrate birthdays.” He goes through this ridiculous list of qualities that you would never expect an employee to uphold, but that’s how he is. And on the flip side, he’s very competitive. He’s guilty of name-calling. He’s pretty irrational at times. He’s definitely driven by his emotions. He’s definitely power-hungry, but you see those softer sides of him, because he’s so wholly committed to Dunder Mifflin. He will do absolutely anything for that company, even if it means spending the day with Jim.

Ren:

Well, and it’s such a good example, too. I think we were just talking about it earlier. I think Dwight’s arc, he had to start to ask what’s important to him. And I think the manager role was important to him, but I think maybe his own success, he was wanting it for his own purpose in the beginning. He’s got an arc where he gets it for a moment, gets that big marble desk put in there, and then shoots the gun in the office, and then that’s summarily the end of it. And I remember, I love it at the end when David Wallace has the company again, and then Jim says, “You should make Dwight the manager.” And then Dwight’s like, “I’m sorry about shooting the gun inside.” And Wallace is like, “What?” But I think that’s an interesting arc for Dwight, because he shoots the gun, and he loses the job.

And we weren’t seeing the part of Dwight that cared about his friends, his job, his colleagues, that was a steward for the work. We were seeing a Dwight who was a steward for himself. And a lot of you might experience someone who’s solely driven by their own success, or you might be solely driven by your own success, and I don’t think that’s bad. Well, I think that if we’re solely driven by any one thing, there is a watch out for you. And I think what we started to see with Dwight is that Dunder Mifflin’s success started to become his success. The people around him started to become his success.

When Jim and Pam left at the very end and they were going to quit, and then Dwight said, “No, you’re fired.” And Jim was really disturbed, because, “I thought we were friends, man.” He’s like, “Oh, don’t leave it like this.” And he goes, “No, no, if I fire you, I can give you X, Y, and Z. I can give you a better [separation] package. If you quit, you’re not going to get any of this stuff.” And they’re like, “Oh, cool.” What a cool bow to his kind of human arc.

Allison:

And then of course, this will be a spoiler, so if you don’t want the show spoiled, maybe don’t listen to this next part.

Ren:

For a 14-year-old show, just keep it together, everybody.

Allison:

At the very end when, what is happening, Dwight and Angela are getting married, and Jim is tasked with trying to get Michael to the wedding. And it’s a really emotional moment between the 2 of them. It’s so good, oh my gosh.

Ren:

It’s so good.

Allison:

And the jokes that I won’t repeat, because I don’t want to be a soundbite, and I don’t want to be crass like Michael, but he has a standard joke that he says, and if you know the show, you probably know it. And so Jim says, “I don’t know if I could get Michael to come, I’m sorry,” or something like that, and he steps aside and Michael’s there, and Dwight was like, “Michael, you came,” and then Michael says the joke, and it’s just a really touching moment where you see the 3 of them as really caring for one another, despite how much they butt heads.

Ren:

Very, very lovely moment. It made me think about Michael at Jim and Pam’s wedding, the bit where he’s like, “I feel like my kids are getting married.” That’s super funny. “The kids are getting married to each other.” I think that what “The Office” does really good is talk about the human part of it, and I think that’s something that we can all be reminded of. I think that’s sort of the pitch of the show is to talk about the mundanity of the office life.

And these days, I don’t know how mundane, with the pandemic and how much of a share that kind of office is or those experiences, but I think we can all kind of vibe with these people who are representative of not just people we know and work with, but really representative of ourselves. I’ll speak for myself. I definitely have some Jim and Dwight and Michael in me, some of their best qualities, some of their worst qualities. I can see shades of it, and I think that’s why we spoke about them today, because we could so easily draw on the impact they had on us. And so, I wonder what you’re doing, folks, to impact the people you’re around.

Allison:

Definitely, and there’s a certain level of acceptance that they have for one another, too. I think about when Andy came along. Andy, sometimes I think to myself, “Oh my gosh, am I like Andy?” Because Andy’s always singing, and I’m usually singing to myself in my office. And it’s probably quite annoying, and they do get irritated by him, but there’s certain levels of acceptance that they have for one another, and they really do bring out the best in one another. And I think about some of the characters we haven’t talked about too, like the Ryans of the world.

Ryan basically hated his job. He hated every minute that he had to be there, but he wanted a paycheck, and eventually gets his MBA, gets a promotion at the corporate office, and he turns into a very self-important type of leader. And then he falls. He’s unethical, he does some unethical things, he gets fired. And then Michael rehires him, which is a curious move there, but it is a good reminder to be grateful for what you have and aware that leadership does not necessarily mean “likership.” It doesn’t mean that you’re trying to get everybody to like you. However, there is a people element to it, and you’ve got to find ways to nourish that side of it, or else you end up like the worst side of the Dwights, you end up like the worst side of the Ryans. So there’s a balance there, but you also don’t want to be the people-pleasing, people-only side of Michael, because then you hire somebody who basically stole from your company, and you just bring them right back and make decisions that probably aren’t great for your company.

Ren:

That’s an interesting … because wondering, does this Ryan, in real life, does he actually pay for his issues in more of a real kind of criminal or other way?

Allison:

Probably not.

Ren:

I think you said it. They were trying to tell a story of acceptance. It’s like he was the worst, most disagreeable, obnoxious … I came from a temp and now all of a sudden I’m a wunderkind, because I’m promising something I can’t deliver and I’m being the worst about it, and then I come back. And I think it demonstrated that everyone’s going to mess up, and “The Office” was a place where people could find acceptance. But you made me think of someone that we didn’t talk about, and I don’t know how much we can explore, but Andy.

Allison:

Andy.

Ren:

Andy himself had a momentary job as the manager for a bit. He was chosen, he was picked, by California. What was his name?

Allison:

David?

Ren:

James Spader’s character.

Allison:

What was his name? David or Daniel or something? I can’t remember.

Ren:

Something. Well, it wasn’t even that, it was just the nickname that he had, but he got chosen, and it was interesting, because when you think about … So many lessons of these people that are representative of us, and Andy’s story was he finally got the job. He’s dealing with whatever kind of romantic or really life issues that he’s going through, and then he proceeds to just run away and sail around, and the office just runs without him. And he’s the manager. And then he comes back, and it’s — Robert California —

Allison:

Robert, that’s right.

Ren:

And he’s got his beard, and he’s in his sailing clothes, and he wants the office to lie for him, and he’s just been gone. And what made it worse is, too, he was dating Erin at the time, and she’s kind of like, “What the hell, man? Where’d you go?” And it’s just interesting, a reminder that there’s a lot of necessary “face your problems” and stuff, “deal with the things that you’re going through, you can’t run away from your issues, because either you come back to them or they follow you,” and it’s just really a lot of human stories in this show that I really enjoyed.

Allison:

Oh yeah, I agree, and Andy, now I think it’s before he gets that promotion, do you remember when he punches a hole in the wall?

Ren:

Yeah, that’s early with his anger management?

Allison:

Yes.

Ren:

That’s when Jim is messing with him?

Allison:

It’s a caricature. You would think that would pretty rarely happen at the office, and I don’t hear stories of people punching holes in their walls, but I do hear stories quite a bit of people losing their tempers and acting in ways that you wouldn’t expect from professional adults at the workplace. But these things happen. So, they send him to anger management and he resolves it somehow, some way. I think he has an episode where he practices his counting to 10 before he speaks or something like that, and it’s an exaggerated caricature, but these things happen. And you’re right, there are hints of everybody on that show, hints of those people at a lot of offices, and Nellie is one person we didn’t talk about. Her character is short-lived, and what I found to be sort of hilarious about her is that she just also declares herself the boss at one point.

Ren:

During that vacuum.

Allison:

Yes, “Well, I’m going to take …” She says, I think if this —

Ren:

This is my office now.

Allison:

If the seat’s open, then the job is open. Somebody says, “Well, that’s Andy’s office.” And she said, “Well, that doesn’t look like his office to me. It’s mine now,” and then she just is in charge. And like you said, that office was running itself without him or her, so she didn’t really do anything, but this type of thing happens at the workplace too, when, if leadership roles and responsibilities aren’t clear, egos can take over and somebody will try to be that stand-in leader and assume the role if that kind of thing is not kept in check. And of course, it’s fine at “The Office.” Nothing really happens. I don’t remember what happens with her. I think she just leaves. Do you remember?

Ren:

Well, I think she actually stays. She becomes a character on the show, but eventually she moves out of the leadership, because she’s not the boss. She doesn’t formally have it. But I think something that I found charming about her was that she didn’t really know what she was doing, but she just … A lot of you, if you put yourself into positions, you find yourself getting those positions. I don’t know if you’ve seen a video of … I saw this clip of this young woman talking about, “I’m trying to get rejected.” I don’t know, is this a thing, seeking rejection? And so she’s like, “I just started to get rejected from all these places.” And she’s like, “I tried to get rejected from my favorite school, got accepted. I tried to get to get rejected from modeling, and they told me my look was too ethereal.”

And it was all these stories of, in her effort to get rejection and deal with the feeling of rejection, she was actually showing that putting herself out there was, like, she was getting opportunities because she was putting yourself into those positions. And so if you’re out there, and you’re thinking about what you should do or how you should do it, put yourself in those positions. And it makes me think, too, of your Dwight story where he’s embodying that weird Mussolini style.

Allison:

Yes.

Ren:

I was watching another clip on YouTube and this guy, he pulled out a cigarette on stage and everyone was like, “Whoa.” And then he goes, “Why? What is this? Did you know that diabetes kills 4 more times Americans every year than cigarettes? And if I pulled out a Snickers bar, you wouldn’t say that.” And then he later says, “And what’s interesting about this is that I’ve made up all of these facts.” And so it’s amazing what people will believe if you say it with authority and this awareness.

Allison:

Yes.

Ren:

Maybe believe in yourself a little bit, and if there’s an empty seat, maybe don’t fully be like Nellie and just steal it, but be like, “Yo, why can’t I sit in that seat?”

Allison:

Absolutely, why can’t you? And maybe not something to get into today, but that trust thing, trust and confidence together can do wonders if you are a leader. And if you’re not, right? The more people trust you, the more willing they are to go along with whatever goals or objectives you have. And the more confident you are, of course, the more confident they will feel. That’s also been proven in research, too. So, there’s some interesting tell in that equation of trust and confidence, that perhaps we can get into another time, but important for leaders for sure.

Ren:

Maybe one more, just before we go, if you had to pick a favorite person to be your favorite boss, and let’s not debate, what are we doing there? I don’t know, let’s pretend that we sell paper. Of anyone we mentioned or anyone we didn’t mention, who would you want to work for?

Allison:

Do you mean I’m working for Dunder Mifflin?

Ren:

Yeah, sure. You’re in Scranton.

Allison:

I’m at the paper company. It’s the same sort of setup?

Ren:

You’re unfortunately in Scranton.

Allison:

I might go with the Jim, the Jim of the later episodes, the later seasons. And I’m going to say this, and I might take it back after I give some thought. So, allow me to, in our next recording if I choose to, but Michael Scott is not the worst type of boss that I’ve seen. I’ve seen a lot worse, and so —

Ren:

Oh no, goodness.

Allison:

Michael wouldn’t be that bad, I don’t think. What about you?

Ren:

I probably choose him. I think that I could do plenty of social engineering, to and with Michael, I think he’s fine if someone’s a go-getter. I like to have fun, too. We would be fine. So, he would never have to worry about me, and I would never have to worry about him. And so I think that he might be mine. I was wondering, too, maybe I’d work for Gabe.

Allison:

Oh, Gabe, I forgot about Gabe.

Ren:

Just because Gabe is a little skeleton. I love it. It’s like Erin says.

Allison:

Poor Gabe.

Ren:

I know, poor Gabe, but I feel like also Gabe is so desperate to be accepted, that if I could help him get that acceptance, then he would just leave me alone. I don’t know if you’re tracking, everyone, but I just want to be left alone, but I think that’s fine.

Allison:

No, but it’s a good exercise in thinking about what your values are. Autonomy is very, very important to me, and I would probably get a lot of that working for Michael. And I like to not take myself too seriously either, and I think that would be a benefit of working for him as well. I also think that if there was some hardship or something happening in my life, I could tell Michael Scott, “Things are really hard right now, and I don’t know how to manage my workload,” and he would be so accepting of that. So, you just have to know what you value. There’s no such thing as a perfect boss or a perfect leader, and it depends on your organization, depends on your team, depends on so much. So, there are so many characters we didn’t talk about too, Ren, but that’s okay. I think we touched on —

Ren:

I know, maybe part 2 of this episode.

Allison:

Perhaps, so any main takeaways that you would leave with our listeners with regard to “The Office”?

Ren:

Just reminding myself that you work with people. Almost all of you at some point have to engage with people. And every once in a while in “The Office,” we see a glimpse behind the curtain into their lives and are reminded that they’re going through their own things, and so too are the people that you’re with. So everyone’s got different styles, different places. You find your niche, you make it work. Be honest with yourself and the people that you’re around.

Allison:

That’s great. And I would add, if you’re someone right now who’s unsure of your career, or thinking about making a switch and you’re not sure, think about what you value the most and maybe your top 2 or 3 absolute non-negotiables that you have at a workplace, and find ways that your workplace can work for you. And you can identify that by knowing what your values are first.

So, we’ll leave it at that. This was a fun episode, and we are doing Manager Madness. So find us on LinkedIn, find us on Instagram. We’re doing some polling on Instagram, too, so you can help us identify perhaps who the best leader is of all of these managers that we will be discussing. And as always, Ren, thanks for the conversation. This was a fun one. A big thank you to our CCL team behind the scenes who makes this podcast happen, and we’ll look forward to tuning in next time. Thanks, everyone.

Ren:

And if “The Office” won, and … You’re time traveling, and you’ve been listening to this management thing the whole time, so congratulations.

Allison:

You win.

Ren:

You win. Thanks, everybody. Thanks, Allison. Find Allison on TikTok.