Lead With That: Ted Lasso & The Importance of Well-Rounded Leadership

Interview Transcript

Intro: 

Hey, welcome back to CCL’s podcast, Lead with That. We talk current events and pop culture to look at where leadership is happening and what’s happening with leadership.

Ren:

Manager Madness is over, Allison, where we have, one by one, discussed public figures, real or fictional, randomly pitted against one another to see who comes out on top. Finally, we are here, our 8th and final Manager Madness episode. Today, Allison and I get to talk about Ted Lasso as we dive into the heartwarming and hilarious world of AFC Richmond to uncover the surprising wisdom in these interesting corners and the leadership insights from some of our favorite characters.

Of course, we’ll talk about the main man, the have, the ever-optimistic Ted Lasso himself. Ted’s leadership style is all about positivity, empathy, and unwavering belief in his team. We’ll also talk about the other powerhouse on the show, Rebecca Welton, the strong and savvy owner of AFC Richmond. Rebecca’s journey from seeking revenge to becoming a beloved leader gives us solace that maybe people can change, Allison, and even be better for it.

Even Coach Beard, Ted’s right-hand man, whose quiet wisdom and strategic mind balances Ted’s exuberance. Or Keeley Jones, one of my absolute favorites, the vibrant and ambitious marketing guru turned PR exec, with her natural charisma and genuine care for people, making her a center of gravity of the show. We’re talking about all of our faves, Jamie, Roy, Nate definitely included. There’s a wealth of leadership lessons to be learned from Ted Lasso. So join us as we explore these characters’ stories, discover how their unique approaches to leadership can inspire and guide us even in our own lives.

Welcome back everyone. I’m Ren Washington, as usual, joined with Allison Barr. Allison, as a former soccer player, what footballer on the show do you identify with the most?

Allison:

It’s a little hard to say, because I suppose in some ways I identify with most of them, maybe not Jamie in his early days. I don’t know if we’re going to talk about Jamie, but in Jamie’s early days, I did not identify with Jamie. But probably the most with Sam, in the way that he was so happy to be there and just found a lot of joy in the sport. There’s some other things that we can talk about with Sam that I did not identify with personally, but can appreciate. But I think I totally appreciate and I was always the player who was happy to be there. When I was little, my mom said that I would come home sometimes and go, “Who won?” because I just had so much fun. So probably Sam.

Ren:

And then I guess our next question is, if you had to play for AFC Richmond, what would you be excited about, and what would you be worried about?

Allison:

Oh, I’d be thrilled to be playing soccer or football, depending on who’s listening. I’d be thrilled to be playing a game as my profession that I enjoy so much. And it wouldn’t be that I’d be worried about coaches or anything like that. My primary concern would be, is my body going to hold up? Because, as you know, being a professional athlete, their bodies get pretty beat up.

Ren:

As you say that, I’m wondering, was there an injury? Yes, there was an injury storyline, Dani.

Allison:

And Roy, Roy Kent.

Ren:

Football is life. Well, I mean, Roy’s was more like an old age experience, right? His injury was more like he was getting old, his knees didn’t work anymore, he had not played. Dani got hurt, hurt his ankle right after his tragic killing of that dog during that free kick.

Allison:

Yes.

Ren:

Okay, so … heard, professional athletes, danger, you might be at risk. I’d probably be most excited, yes, to be a pro. I mean, Ted seems like my kind of coach, team seems fun. I’d be worried that I don’t like to lose, and one of the things I did not enjoy about the show was — spoiler alert for a 10-year-old show — most of the time they were losing. And I understand that’s maybe where the most fertile leadership lessons come from, when times are tough. But I was so glad, and finally on the 3rd season, where we got a little bit of like, “Oh gosh, it’s starting to come together.” But maybe, there we go, it’s like, things take time.

Allison:

Yeah. Well, 2 things. One of my favorite managers from pre-CCL would always say to me, not just to me, but to all of us, “You are the kind of leader that you are when you’re struggling. That’s who you are as a leader, not when things are great. That’s less telling.” So I think of that often. And the second piece is, I think maybe I relate to the injury part more so to Roy, because you know your career is finite, the playing part of it. Maybe I think that’s what I mean more, at some point you’re either slower than the 18-, 19-year-olds and you’re just not going to keep up, or you … I don’t remember what he did, tear his knee or meniscus or something like that. I don’t know, maybe both. He was also slow in his older age. I think I might have an identity crisis after that. I think that would be really hard.

Ren:

See, you’re tapping into exactly what I want to talk about today. It’s a culmination of all of these character episodes, which I think is a perfect manifestation of maybe why Ted was able to be the coach he was, or why these people were interesting, because they had to either be okay with not caring about the outcome or had to work towards that.

I think a big part of Ted’s success was, as it related to the team, or at least all of the characteristics that everyone loved, it was because winning — or rather his identity to winning — wasn’t the thing he was dealing with. He’d gone past that. It wasn’t about the winning, and therefore, when people performed in such a way, all of a sudden we were faced with this new way of being in front of this high-stress environment.

So there’s this peace with the outcome, or maybe this recognition that there’s more than just the win. But even at one point in season 2, and I think we’ve already alluded to it a couple of times, but that was a little bit more of a testing season, where even Beard pushed back a little bit and was like, “No, winning does matter.”

Allison:

Yeah, there is a specific episode, and maybe it happened more than once, I can’t remember, where he very literally says those words, “Winning games matters.” And I was hopeful that something like that would come out of the show because, I’ll be transparent with you, I’m very late to watching Ted Lasso. I’m so late to this party. I just started it. I saw the first couple episodes on a flight coming back from Germany for some client work, and they only show you a few, and I was hooked. And that was not that long ago.

And I was a little hesitant to watch it, because how I perceived that show was rainbows and butterflies, a little bit Mary Poppins–esque. That’s how it was portrayed in some of the trailers. I wanted the realness of leadership, and it surprised me. It absolutely gets into the realness. Because if you think about the workplace, if our organization or any organization said, “Results don’t matter, don’t worry about it,” we probably wouldn’t last very long.

Ren:

Yeah. Well, it’s like you said, I think your manager’s idea, how you show up when you’re really under duress is a good sign of what your style really is. And so I’m torn between going by characters and maybe going by seasons. There’s part of me that wants to say seasons, and then we’ll be able to tap into a lot of the players through maybe some of our favorite moments. But I don’t know, what do you think, seasons, characters?

Allison:

Well, true confession, I’m not done with season 3 yet. And do you want to know why? This is why. I did this with Schitt’s Creek, too.

Ren:

Okay.

Allison:

I was chugging along watching that show, and then I’m so invested that now I don’t want it to end. So I’m like, “I don’t want to watch the end of this.” So maybe we can do a little bit of both.

Ren:

I love it. Yeah, maybe a little bit of both. Just for my curiosity, how much of season 3 have you seen?

Allison:

Just the first 2 episodes, I think.

Ren:

Okay.

Allison:

Yeah.

Ren:

Well, yes, one of my favorite book series, The Dark Tower by Stephen King, 7 books long. I got to book 7. It’s 7 books, the 7th book’s 1,000 pages long. 500 pages through, I just stopped because I didn’t want the journey to end. So I hear you. But what is it, Trent Crimm, some of his best work, I think, comes in season 3. So you’re in for a good, good experience.

Allison:

Oh, okay.

Ren:

Yeah, I like season 3 and I may have spoiled some already for you. Yeah, well, maybe let’s just —

Allison:

Well just don’t tell me about the last episode.

Ren:

Okay, I won’t.

Allison:

Just don’t spoil that part.

Ren:

Okay. Well, I don’t know. I mean, as we talk about ideas of acceptance and making peace with the outcome, gosh. Okay, no spoilers for you. So I guess, let’s maybe start with you said Sam, and in season 1 we meet Sam, and he is having his own experiences, I think, as his story arc begins. And I think Sam’s an interesting microcosm of personal leadership, maybe some of the things or places that we can do to lead ourselves to then open the aperture to lead others or to be led by others. And so talking about Sam in season 1, and maybe even tapping into the parts that you aligned with, tell us more. What are some of the things that we can learn about Sam?

Allison:

Well, I think that Sam really highlights that leadership is not confined to those in formal positions of power, which you and I know, and it’s what CCL’s formative research has found, and we continue to find that. So that’s the biggest highlight for me.

But then there’s another part of it. Perhaps the bigger theme with Sam is standing up for what he believes in. And early on, I actually don’t remember if this is in season 1 or season 2, early on, he protests by putting tape over the name of one of their sponsors on his jersey. And he does that due to that company’s harmful environmental practices in Nigeria, which is where his family is. And the players follow suit and support him, and eventually that company stops their harmful practices.

And his leadership style, to me, is a version of what we might call “ethical leadership,” air quoting that, but more inspiring others to act with integrity. His bravery in decision-making also underscores that need for courage and leadership too, and even in some of his personal relationships, which I won’t spoil. But one of his romantic storylines, he exemplifies … also humble and honest and direct and doing truly what is right for all parties involved.

Ren:

Well, season 2, when he’s in more of a forward position in the team, and it’s Dubai Air, and he is able to do this. But it’s interesting because you think about standing up for himself and he’s got … Part of Sam’s storyline is his relationship with his father.

Allison:

It is.

Ren:

And I think the impetus to … He’s always reaching out to his dad, and his dad, I think, is always reaching out to him. They have a seemingly healthy relationship. But I think his dad admonishes him, “How could you be on a team that’s doing X, Y, and Z, that supports this in our country?” And that was the moment of action for Sam.

And as I think about the peace that he’s able to make with his own future, and even how he evolves in season 3 and the relationship that you’ll see, Allison, with dad, it reminds me … he has, like many of our leaders, had to walk through the gates of what are my beliefs, and what are the beliefs that I’m told I should have? And then are they aligned? And I think for Sam, we find that they’re aligned, that meshes with his constitution. Sam is a character of resolve, and so it seems to really stick and stay to it. He’s an honorable dude, and he’s going to hold it down like that.

Allison:

It does. And now that we’re talking, I’m realizing how many storylines there are connected to fatherhood, which was interesting to me. I’m not sure if that stood out to a lot of people who watched it, but Rebecca and her dad, Jamie. Jamie, stark contrast.

If we jump to Jamie for just a moment, Jamie season 1, he is arrogant, he is selfish, he’s condescending. He eventually leaves the team for a better team, then he gets kicked off that team. He eventually comes back to play for Richmond, and you start to understand his behavior a little bit. It also highlights that just because somebody is hurting does not mean you have to accept their behavior. However, we’ll come back to that. I think that’s an interesting thing to talk about.

But even Ted Lasso and his dad … Back to Jamie for one second. I realize I just jumped, but Jamie’s dad is a horrific human being and just treats him so poorly. It is sort of heartbreaking. But there’s another through line with Ted Lasso and his dad, and I was wondering, Ren, if that jumped out to you and if that was something that caused you to think at all?

Ren:

I think keep watching. What I will say about the show is that I think they do a good job of closing up some of those loops.

Allison:

Okay.

Ren:

And so yes, you are tracking and tracing the right rabbits, and I think you’ll see the different acts much like a play. Much like 3 acts in a play, I think the seasons play themselves out. And act 3 is really interesting, and a lot of things come to a head and tie up. And I think, as you’re reflecting about the tension or pain that people are feeling, I think what you’ll see is a big part of Ted Lasso is about redemption. And I think a lot of leadership is about redemption.

You started this conversation, I think, with Jamie, or at least this part of the conversation with Jamie, and how it’s so easy to judge someone from the outside, especially when they make it really easy to judge them. Jamie’s not doing himself any favors. He’s not a friendly guy in the beginning. I mean there are certain pockets, as long as you don’t mess with him, like popular kids, where we see that in the beginning.

But the more you get to know Jamie, the more you realize that people are super complex. They are often an echo of their traumas and their experiences. And once you move past, or help … once both parties are willing to grow, I think you see with Jamie, and you’ll continue to see with Jamie, that he changes in a lot of instances.

Allison:

He does. And I think it’s a quote that comes from Ted himself, who I’m going to paraphrase, he says something like, “Sometimes we get caught up in who we think that person is, we actually don’t see who they really are.” It’s really easy to get caught up, at least in season 1, on Jamie’s behavior and just really not like him. It is a good reminder, albeit a little bit cliche, and true, that you really don’t know what people are going through.

And Jamie is a really interesting journey through this show, to me, because he shows that effective leadership involves personal growth, of course teamwork as well and humility. And his transformation, from this very self-centered star of the show to a supportive team member, can provide a lot of really rich insights into the journey of developing leadership skills and developing personally, too, because frankly they’re kind of the same, right? His character also demonstrates that leaders can evolve and grow and adapt to new circumstances, and people can change. They have to work on it, though. It’s hard work.

Ren:

I think that’s a theme of the show also, not just that people can change, but that none of this comes by accident. All of it’s hard work.

I think you’re not wrong on your read of season 1, where despite the fact that they don’t do a lot of winning, there’s this general air of like, “that’s chill though,” especially towards the end when, speaking of Jamie, it’s the end of the season and we finally feel, all of us feel this collective ease that Ted’s finally reached out to Jamie and helped him understand and see.

Rebecca’s still driven by frustration and anger with her circumstances, gets in the way, and then goes forward with the trade or whatever, the loan to Manchester City of Jamie, and then off he goes. And there was like this, “Oh no, if only these 2 characters would talk to each other.” It’s this moment of duress. But even in the shadow of that, with Ted’s general attitude, it was like, “Well, who cares?” It seemed like it would’ve been a lot more dire.

But maybe it was Rebecca and Ted’s exchange, where Rebecca admits to herself that she cared more about harming someone than helping others, and Ted’s open acceptance of that. Maybe speaks to relationships take work, growth takes work. You have to be willing to put yourself out there to say sorry. You have to be willing to listen to someone saying sorry and say it’s okay. I think that’s a really cool manifestation of the work that’s done in season 1.

Allison:

Yes, agree. And I want to come back to Rebecca here in a minute, but one more thing about Jamie, too, is that you really see how his confidence can be an asset, how his best can be his worst. And he learns to balance that confidence with self-awareness and understanding that confidence to the extreme turns into arrogance, which is detrimental not only to him, but to the team as well and to his personal relationships.

You and I have talked about personal responsibility before, Ren, a couple of times in previous episodes. And I think Jamie learns that taking responsibility is essential for trust building and also for credibility. His willingness to admit when he was wrong, eventually, and make amends demonstrates the importance of accountability in leadership. He seems to also understand that an apology is nice and it’s important and they’re just words, and his behaviors need to match what he’s apologizing for.

Ren:

Yeah, I think you’re tapping into some of the growth. I’m keen for you to finish season 3. I think what they do is fairly … even though they have, they’ve let people grow, I think people are still people in this show, and there’s still a lot of complexities to their experience. And so Roy and Jamie’s evolving relationship, especially around that beautiful bright star that is Keeley, I think is a really, really interesting part of the story.

What I think I love, too, about Ted is a couple of things. I’m actually really interested to hear what you think. And damn, I don’t know if it’s in season 3 or not, so we might not be able to talk about. It might be in season 2. I think it might be in season 2. No, it’s not. Anyway.

The women in this show and the way that they get to explore, I think, a woman’s experience in the world, a woman’s experience in work, tension between masculinity and femininity, but just what leadership looks like for them. And so you said you wanted to swing back to Rebecca, and I talked about her confession too. Anything else that really stuck out for you?

Allison:

Yeah. I think most of the characters demonstrate personal growth, like you said, and leadership growth in different ways. Rebecca, to me, is really a combination of that personal growth and empowering others, resilience, relationship building, integrity. And like you said, we first experience her as a vengeful business person who … her purpose is to destroy her ex-husband, that’s the purpose, her ex-husband who cares about the team so much and cares about winning.

She learns, mostly through Ted, at the beginning at least, to maintain integrity even when it’s difficult. And I think it is Keeley who forces Rebecca to apologize for certain things that she does to Ted. And I think we see her apology, and Ted of course forgiving her quite quickly. And what he says to her is, “Divorce makes us do strange things.” And right after he says that, it’s the first time that we see Rebecca soften.

And from there, their relationship dramatically changes and improves. And from there you see the team really … I should say the senior leadership team, if you want to call it that, the coaches, assistant coaches, Rebecca, have more of a “one team” feel and things change from there.

What’s really interesting about what you said is that I’m also … I wasn’t sure if I was going to say this, but you said it, so I’m going to say it. You mentioned a woman’s experience. I was so curious on your take about how a man’s relationship, men’s relationships with one another is what I meant, how those are shown and experienced in this show. There’s the Diamond Dogs, I think that’s what they call themselves, the Diamond Dogs.

Ren:

Yes.

Allison:

Right? And when I first saw that … again, I don’t remember what episode that is, but essentially I think Ted’s having relationship troubles or something like that. He calls a couple of the assistant coaches in, and they have this heartwarming exchange and they’re helping each other. It’s very supportive and empathetic, and that’s a theme throughout the show, too.

There’s another theme, where Ted leaves in the middle of a game because he has a panic attack, but he tells everybody he has food poisoning. And when he finally confesses, they all confess some things to one another and have a hug-it-out type of moment. And traditionally, at least in the US, men aren’t socialized and it’s not normalized for men to have those types of relationships. So I was curious on your take.

Ren:

It’s really interesting, because I think one of the … Gosh, how can I try to avoid being too political? Maybe one of the cornerstones of the patriarchy is homophobia, which is funny and interesting because in most sports, there seems to be this latent tension and connection between the closeness of humanity. And in battle too, it’s often interesting, you’ll hear about the closeness that is forged in the fires of conflict and in these places where you’d see these guys be really close. And you’ll be like, “I don’t understand how they can toe that line of masculinity and closeness. Aren’t those typically feminine characteristics?”

And it does seem like, it’s interesting, there’s acceptance of, or at least I think a lot of … In the locker room when you’ve worked hard with someone in blood, sweat, and tears, there’s more grace or understanding for the parts of you that are more human. And I think there was these spaces where you got to see that show up.

And it was one of those things too, like the McAdoo and Colin storyline, I think in season 2, was one of those exemplars where … I don’t know, do you know what I’m talking about, because I don’t want to spoil for you. It could be season 3.

Allison:

I don’t remember. It’s okay. It’s all right if you spoil it.

Ren:

Okay, well —

Allison:

I think I do, but now I think I’m confusing a couple storylines.

Ren:

Oh, that’s okay. Well, anyway, when we find out that one of our footballers is just proverbially in the closet … I don’t know if that’s still a common term or usage or not … And then there’s this tension in the team, because it’s written about by our favorite author. So this is a little bit later, surprise, surprise. And there’s this exploration of what does it look like to be in in a relationship with someone that you care about and admit. And ultimately we got to this point where McAdoo was never mad at this guy for being gay. He was mad that he didn’t trust him with this secret.

And it reminded me a lot about when we were talking about Schitt’s Creek. I think the way that they treated non-heteronormative relationships in this show was just so relieving. They would brew this tension and then it would be like, “Here we go again.” And I think Ted would do a lot of, they would telegraph a lot of their storyline beats, but in certain instances, there was just a relief where, “Oh, okay, this isn’t this same old gay surprise or gay-hating kind of experience,” but it’s more an embracing the nuance.

And so I think when it showed the closeness of the male relationship within the locker room, I think anyone who’s ever played a sport knows that that’s not atypical. There’s a lot of closeness in the locker rooms, and I think it treated it really generously. So I don’t know if I answered your question. I felt pretty familiar with it and okay with it, and I felt like it was nice in some instances to talk about the less toxic ways that these guys could connect with each other.

Allison:

Yeah, I agree. I thought they did a really nice job of showing exactly what you just said, how men are allowed, and it’s helpful to connect in more emotional ways. Ted, I don’t think this is a spoiler, but he has some mental health struggles, and he’s very willing to be vulnerable and share that with his mates and have conversations not only with the men but with Rebecca. Sometimes it’s in the most inopportune places.

But he does a good job, or the show rather does a good job, of how it can be really harmful to perpetuate those patriarchal norms, I suppose, of men not being able to feel their feelings. We don’t have to harp on that too long, other than to say that the show does a great job of modeling what seems to be very healthy male friendship relationships.

Ren:

Well, I think we should tap into it. I think season 2, if I look at the whole arc, I’m like, “Season 2 is the season of tests.” Everyone I think is pushed to a point of … They’re all tested. Any of the feel-goods that season 1 was all about, I was like, “Oh man, I don’t know if the feel-goods are going to be enough to keep me afloat as these people continue to be challenged.” And so I think there is something to talk about, especially with the introduction of Dr. Sharon and her role.

I think it’s really interesting to talk about, again, more things, like making it okay to have conversations about our experiences. And I feel like it’s Roy’s transition at the end of season 1, and you highlighted it in the beginning, as the guy who had identity wrapped in … He was one of those kids who … his character played since he was 16 or 17, a professional teenager. And so now he’s in his, what, early 40s or something?

So his only identity ever has been this really, really prolific player, then just a good player, now just this staunch veteran, now just this old man. And the way he had to move past that — and still navigates it in season 2 — I think is really interesting. And so maybe that’s the springboard for us into that season of tests. But just wanted to talk … Roy’s leadership and his growth is always interesting too.

Allison:

Roy, I could spend this whole episode talking about Roy. I think he’s my favorite, although check me when I finish the season, or the whole series rather. Roy, I think he’s a favorite for a lot, and I find him to be so hilarious even when he might not be trying to, as his character.

And from a leadership perspective, he shows how nuanced leadership absolutely has to be. He combines toughness and directness with compassion, authenticity, emotional intelligence. He grows into that. You see him grow into that. He also models resilience and adaptability. He can give straightforward, tough love. I don’t know if you remember this scene where Jamie’s so frustrated that Roy won’t coach him. Do you remember that scene?

Ren:

Yeah.

Allison:

And Jamie’s like, “Why won’t you coach me?” I won’t quote him because Roy swears a lot, so I don’t think I can quote him without … there’s just no way for me to quote him. But the way he’s so direct with Jamie and he says, I need you to go back to being, a word that starts with a P that I won’t say. But what he’s alluding to is I need you to go back to that self-centered person, score some goals, and I’ll give you a sign. I will give you a sign when I need you to do that. And Jamie’s like, “Okay. Well, how am I going to know what the sign is?” Do you remember what the sign is, Ren?

Ren:

I certainly do. I certainly do.

Allison:

Would you like to tell our listeners?

Ren:

It’s a zap, except it’s a middle finger, which seems culturally weird because why would they give a middle finger? That doesn’t make any sense, but I like it. It seems like a writing continuity.

Allison:

Right. But my point with Roy is, that scene alone highlights that you have to be adaptable, and you have to be. Sometimes it calls for you to be a team player and share the load, if you will, and other times it calls for you to be the quote, unquote, “star” or to really share your talent.

And Roy also, I just love him. There’s a scene where Jamie’s dad is not so kind to him, and Jamie is in the locker room standing just in awe of what just happened. The rest of the teammates, frankly, are doing the same, just like, “How did that just happen?” And Roy is the one that goes over. And they have tension throughout the show, too. Roy is the one who goes and just gives him a huge hug and allows Jamie to just have some tears and some support. So I just love Roy, and I think he’s so funny. His relationship with his niece is the same, too. He seems to understand what it truly means to develop people and to be really straightforward with them with love.

Ren:

Yeah, I think straightforward with love is some of Roy’s opportunity. And I think his experience … something that we were talking about, I think we started with Jamie, is you never know what people’s experiences are. Something about Roy that he learned when he was younger, was that he made fun of a guy on his team, much like he was an older guy when Roy was younger. That guy had just experienced a tragic loss, and then that man reacted and beat Roy up. And then the guy was kicked off the team, and they ran into each other some weeks later and Roy found out why this guy reacted that way. And Roy used that as a teaching moment later, this McAdoo and Colin thing that you will experience in season 3.

But I think it speaks to another thing that these leaders, the biggest leaders, or maybe eventually we’ll just land on Ted … but perspective. That these people were able to, at their best, keep perspective, so much so where when they’re able to recognize that, hey, maybe my biggest problem is I’ve got to raise a son across the country in a relationship that’s failing, not that I’m hired to be a coach, or not that my identity or my success is necessarily tied to this football club’s success.

And even at the end of season 3, I think you recognize that truth for Ted. But there’s something really interesting in this recognition of perspective and those who can keep it and those who can’t.

Allison:

Definitely. And I think too, especially if I consider what some of our clients are navigating right now and really what’s happening in the world, we have some unique challenges, it’s okay to demand high standards. That’s okay. And Roy exemplifies that. He is tough, and he demands high standards. And he balances that with … he really, truly, genuinely cares and has concern for his teammates and for his friends and family as well. I would say that he shows that effective leadership can involve being both of those things, being firm and expecting the best, and by also being supportive and providing encouragement for people in the way that he does it in his hilarious ways.

Ren:

The support and encouragement, and then maybe that sharp J-turn into rigid … Nate. We have to talk a little bit around Nate, because honestly, I really found Nate really enjoyable in season 1, and then the way they started to write him in season 2 maybe like … I kept on talking to Heather like, “Why in the hell are they making such a concerted effort for us to not like him?” He just started being mean to people that were in his shoes, like the new ball boy or whatever, he would just be so cruel to. Well, it starts to explain itself later, but it was just such an interesting decision that they really forced Nate’s arc on him. It seemed like such a departure from who he was in season 1.

But all the same, I think his experiences were that he lost perspective. He couldn’t maintain this goal, like what does Ted and my relationship look like? What is my role on the team? I used to be this humble dude who was willing to do anything, and now I’m up here, and now I maybe have lost sight of where I’ve gone, so much so where I’ll just be mean to other people who are in my shoes. And I think his is a reminder, and his whole story is a reminder, but his early story is a reminder that nothing’s promised, and people will remember … that if you’re not kind, it’s a hard road back. And thank goodness Ted has grace for those around him.

Allison:

I was hoping we’d talk a little bit about Nate because, gosh, his character really explores themes of recognition, a little bit about ambition, I would say, and transformation. I’m curious what you liked about him in season 1 because he … Well, I’ll let you answer that before I chime in.

Ren:

Well, he was this humble dude who put up with a lot of crap. He was willing to help the team still. I think he was meant to be a sympathetic character. I think with Ted giving him credit, and then him beginning the end of his, or rather starting his whole weird wunderkind part experience. But I think generally there was something charming about him, and then how he was able to help them succeed and win.

And honestly, I think, probably I saw a little bit of the imposter syndrome, and that was also worthy of sympathy, where he finally was in this space, was around people that trusted him, but he couldn’t see that anymore. He was like, “Am I actually worthy of trust? Do I have to change who I am? Maybe I need to be meaner.” And so I think he was just this nice, wholesome, humble person in season 1, and that was likable.

Allison:

I think the other part of this for me is that Nate, in season 1, he’s not treated well by the players.

Ren:

No, my goodness.

Allison:

He’s really not, and I think his insecurities wildly take him over. He’s not treated well by the club. They take advantage of him, they make fun of him, they bully him. He seems to be searching for, I don’t know, validation from them as well as his father, another father theme there. And I’m not saying his behavior is okay because he is quite cruel in season 2, but you can see how that happens though. You can see his insecurity just takes him over. And there’s a scene, that’s maybe more of a nicer scene, where Rebecca teaches Nate how to own a room. Do you remember that?

Ren:

I think, oh yeah, doing the dragon face, and his is a much more hardcore version of that, isn’t it?

Allison:

Oh, it’s so funny. But it reminds me of … there’s some research by a woman named Amy Cuddy. This is a little bit of a side note, but it’s relevant. If you’re someone who gets nervous leading meetings or being in front of people, to make your body language appear bigger, not in the dramatic way maybe that Rebecca teaches Nate to do. It’s quite funny.

But anyhow, all that to say is that after that moment, it seems like you start to see Nate grow in his confidence. And he makes a call during one of the games that Ted had to unexpectedly leave that was the right call, then Twitter falls in love with Nate, and that all goes to his head. And that’s when he begins treating others quite poorly. His ego swells. I think he says, in one episode, that he wants to be the one to make all the decisions and receive all the credit. Coach Beard tells him, here and there, to check himself. But I haven’t seen Nate come down yet, so —

Ren:

Well, yes, you’re still in act 2. I do think though, it’s interesting that there’s …. That’s right. So the wunderkind, I think, because Ted has the panic attack, and during that game, Nate makes the call for them to do their little defensive move, and then they break free for a counterattack and score. And that’s the beginning of the end of any kind of niceties left in Nate. And gosh, you talk about Beard, and I’m looking at the clock, because Coach Beard too.

Allison:

I know.

Ren:

And maybe we can talk about him next to Ted, because it reminds me of … Ted exemplifies so many things I think that people aspire for in leadership, if you agree with what he cares about. And I think, if you are only interested in winning and only interested in winning now, which I think a lot of professional institutions are, would they have given Ted as much length? And I think you even start to see a conversation like that begin to happen in the show where it’s, “Yeah, Ted’s great, but aren’t we here to win games? Where do we draw the line?” I think maybe Ted’s biggest challenge, and I don’t know if he succeeded, but his biggest challenge was maybe communicating to other people that this stuff didn’t really matter as much and it was the other things that mattered.

Allison:

I think, gosh, there are far too many quotable moments from Ted that can translate directly to organizational leadership. But, gosh, I just think his approach to leadership emphasizes the importance of humility. He also has a clear vision. Empowering others, that’s a theme as well. Role modeling positivity, empathy. Assuming positive intent he does constantly. And he fosters a positive culture and a culture where people can be heard and can express how they’re feeling and what’s on their mind. He might not agree with you, but you can express it and you won’t be punished for that.

And I think one of the things that Ted … there’s too much to talk about with Ted. One of the things that comes up for me with Ted, too, is this question that I hear often from our clients is, “Well, my manager doesn’t even know how to do my job. How am I supposed to trust my manager?” Does a good leader have to be able to tactically do all of the things in a job? Because Ted doesn’t know how to play. He’s not a soccer player, he was a football coach, American football that is.

So that’s one of the questions that comes up for me, that I hear frequently from our clients, and he really does a great job in keeping things in perspective. Again, he creates vision and he overstates, almost, that there are more important things in life than winning or losing.

Ren:

Yeah, Ted, I think that exploration of do you have to know the profession to be a good leader in the space, they explore early and I think they get it out of the way. Though, Beard is still his tactician, although Beard is a football coach. But Beard and then Nate and then Roy, they really become part of the leadership team that guides them. So they do need some institutional wisdom, but there is something magnetic around him.

Ted, he’s doing more than trying to get a group of footballers to win games. And I’m just so reminded as my kids start to play sports, I’m like, “They’re learning so many lessons, and winning is only one of them.” There are so many things to learn in the confines of sport, and I think Ted recognizes that. And so he can communicate or give people the space that, hey, what I’m here to help you do is try to be the best version of yourself. I actually don’t need to know the level of detail you know about your sport.

And the way he was able to make peace with it, because when Nate first gives him the idea, or they run a play when Jamie and Sam, season 1, are still really tense and they’re using Jamie as a decoy and they score, Ted immediately gave credit away to Nate. And so Ted’s not even scared of the fact that, aren’t people going to say, “Hey, you know nothing about soccer. See?” He’s like, “Yeah, I know, but I’m really good at things that you have no idea about.”

Allison:

And there’s a scene with Coach Beard and Nate, where Nate is upset because he suggests an idea to Ted, and Ted says, “Oh, that’s a great idea for a play in the game.” And Ted says, “We’ll do it. Great idea.” And he walks away, and Nate is frustrated, and he says, “He’s going to take all the credit,” which he doesn’t. But Nate says, “He’s going to take the credit and I want the credit.” And Coach Beard says something along the lines of, “That’s how this thing works. That’s how this works. We are assistant coaches.” I can appreciate Coach Beard’s reality checks. He’s sort of subtle in his leadership, and he seems to understand the big picture, I would say.

Ren:

Yeah, and I think Beard has perspective, too, because, as you’ll learn about him, no spoilers for you, you learn more about his relationship with Ted and why. And then you learn more to appreciate Ted’s experience, or his willingness to stay open. There’s something about his openness. And that’s why season 2 is such an interesting exploration, because you see Ted start to have his panic attack, then you see Ted have a chance to interact with the sports psychologist, and then you see Ted fail to get out of his own way. And it’s so interesting, people are able to maintain this perspective about everyone else but themselves.

If Ted was watching one of his players go through his struggles, he would’ve said something witty or pithy or kind or generous. He’d tell that guy, “Get out of the rut.” But Ted couldn’t get out of his own way. He couldn’t see past his own pain. And I think as a leader, so often, at least for me, I found that I am the most successful when I look past my own worries, fears, pain, my own oughts and shoulds. And then, all of a sudden, we’re all feeling better, whether or not I get the credit, because at least I’m not stressing about any of the other stuff.

Allison:

And I think, coming back to Dr. Sharon, who’s the sports psychologist, for just a moment, she says something to him. She says 2 things to him that sort of solidify their relationship. The first one is, “The truth will set you free, but it’ll piss you off first.” And it’s sort of funny, but they have this conversation, and I’m paraphrasing here, about you will bring your stuff to work, you will bring your unprocessed stuff to work. So it’s really best to work through those things so that you can be the best leader that you can be.

I’m not suggesting that everybody needs therapy. You find your own way to process whatever hardships you have. And Ted’s hardship is a pretty big one that he’s never worked through. And so their relationship evolves in a really lovely way. And when the players learn the NSYNC dance for her going away it’s a real highlight. It’s very, very funny.

But back to Dr. Sharon for a moment. She and Ted highlight, to me, the power of relationship building, too, because it isn’t until Sharon says to him … Ted offers her tea. Ted doesn’t like tea. And Dr. Sharon says, “Oh no, I hate tea. It’s tastes like …” I think she says it tastes like wet cardboard or something like that. And he sits down and he says, “I’ll tell you anything you want.” And again, it’s kind of humorous, but it does highlight how trust develops behaviorally like that, and the importance of relationship building.

Ren:

Yeah, well, it was almost like her willingness to get vulnerable with him. And again, his willingness to be vulnerable with the team was such a lightning rod for their success. And most of their successes were interpersonal, I think, in the first couple of seasons. But when I think about Dr. Sharon, I think the vulnerability, and we get to see behind the veil, too, is that the sports therapist has a therapist.

Allison:

Yes.

Ren:

And she’s talking about Ted in one of the therapy sessions, like, “This patient won’t talk to me. He’s so wrapped around his axle.” It’s so often just a reminder for you that if you’re bemoaning an experience, it’s almost weird how someone else is bemoaning the exact … they’re feeling the exact same pain you are, and that’s what you 2 are really fighting about. You’re both trying to implore, you’re like, “We’re going through the same pain.” But you can’t see each other’s pain because you’re feeling your own pain. And it’s like, that’s such an interesting leadership or relationship microcosm.

Allison:

Yeah, it is. One of the things that Dr. Sharon eventually says to Ted, she gets into a … This is a bit of a spoiler, but she’s okay. She rides her bike a lot, and she gets hit by a car and she gets a bad concussion. And after the scene that you’ve just mentioned of her talking to her therapist, she finally says to Ted, “I was really scared. I was really scared that I wouldn’t be able to do something that I love so much because of fear of getting hurt again.”

She opens up to him, and in some ways it allows him to do the same with her. So you raise an interesting point, too, that sometimes the thing that you want from the other person is the thing that you might have to show them first to build that trust and build that relationship, which can be hard.

Ren:

Or sometimes the narrative you’re pitching yourself about that other person is weirdly mirrored by them.

Allison:

Yes.

Ren:

They don’t trust me, I’m untrustworthy. They don’t like me, I don’t like them. And the other person’s like, “Well, they don’t trust me, so they’re untrustworthy and they don’t like me, so I don’t like them.” We create a lot of the realities we’re in. And I think that was something Ted was trying to … maybe his biggest leadership lesson is that the journey is the thing that matters. And the more that we can see of each other on the journey, the more growth that’s going to happen. It’s like, the end way is just learning more about ourselves and each other and hearing more about each other’s experiences.

So often, he shines a light on each other’s experiences to let the team make a good positive decision for themselves. And he’s only able to do that, I think, because he’s made peace with his own experiences or maybe not enough peace with other demons. And so he doesn’t really care about the soccer team because he’s got trauma with his father, and trauma as being a father, and trauma in his wedding, marriage rather. So, there we go.

Allison:

Right. It’s a powerful show in so many ways, and I think it’s hard, for me at least, to find one takeaway. I’m paying attention to time. And before I go there, is there any other character that you want to talk about? I know you said you love Keeley.

Ren:

Yeah. I mean, we have to do a season 3, because I really want to hear your point of view about how they manage Keeley’s evolving relationship with other characters in the show, and especially the way they treat certain relationships. So we’ll talk offline about that.

But I do think there was something interesting about the relationship with Jamie and Keeley, and then the relationship with Roy and Keeley. Another kudos to the show was that they would … I remember this one point where Jamie comes over to Keeley’s house to try to say sorry or something, and then it cuts away, and then it cuts to Roy coming a few hours later. He gets home, and he calls Keeley and she’s not there. And immediately we’re thinking, “Oh my God, is Keeley cheating on Roy with Jamie?” And no, in fact, she’s just thinking about Roy. It’s a scene I’m talking about, people. But either way, despite that, it’s such a, “Oh, that’s super refreshing.” And it was about a moment of Roy’s vulnerability.

It’s so interesting, the things that we think about people, or the stories we tell ourselves about people, maybe aren’t true, or they aren’t the things we need to be showing, and maybe we need to be more vulnerable, or let’s not jump to conclusions. So I think maybe until you watch the rest of season 3, that’ll be it for Keeley.

Allison:

Okay. Well, I’ll say one more thing that’s semi-related to Keeley, but mostly related to the point you just made, is Keeley starts a dating app. I think it’s called Bantr. And if you join Bantr, you don’t see the faces of the people that you’re speaking with. And so I had to check my assumptions, because a lot of them start using it. It’s kind of like a side storyline that they start to use this app. You see Rebecca’s using it, you see a couple of the players are using it. I don’t think you actually ever see Ted using it, but I assumed he was using it.

Ren:

But they make you think he’s using it.

Allison:

Yes.

Ren:

Yes, they do. 

Allison:

I jumped to a very big conclusion there, and I was surprised to see who it actually was that Rebecca was talking to. So I’ll just leave it at that. But your point on making conclusions or jumping to conclusions is heard, and I had to do that a couple of times in the show as well.

Ren:

Yeah. I guess through the storyline, they remind us of leadership lessons.

Allison:

Yes.

Ren:

Yeah, I don’t know, I mean so much of Ted, and so many things that I think are interesting … maybe what’s the one thing, then, you would try to embody? There are so many lessons, but if you were like Ted, what’s one thing you’d like to be like Ted the most?

Allison:

There’s something that we say, and I’ve heard you say it too, so I’m including you in this, that we say to clients a lot, and that I say to clients a lot, that I have to remind myself to do, and that is what Ted says is, “I know I don’t have all the answers, but I have a room full of people who do.” And again, that’s something that I remind leaders in the classroom constantly, especially in our LDP program where we have a cohort of mixed leaders and leader levels, is that if you feel siloed in obstacles, there’s almost always someone in the room or in your organization, or in your circle, in your network, who will have a solution who’s probably been through something similar.

And I think that that would be my one takeaway, is a reminder to myself as well as our listeners, that don’t let yourself become more siloed and sucked into, “I have to go at this alone,” because you actually don’t. And you’ll probably get through it faster if you enroll the support of people who are in your network. What about you, Ren?

Ren:

Yeah, I think it’s really important, the answer is likely in the room. And maybe that’s it for Ted, is he was so willing not to be the brightest star in the room. And I think the best leaders that I ever work with let their team rise. And then at the end of it, what happens, and as you’ll see yourself, is that people will want to herald you for it. They will want to name the success after you, and really what you did was get out of the way enough. Or rather, I think Ted was really good at getting in the way, helping in a certain fashion that mattered, helping people and letting them grow. And he was so okay not being the center of attention, not being the most important one.

And so maybe as you’re trying to do what you’re saying, Allison, or you’re trying to lead out there too, recognize that letting other people thrive is not an indicator of your weakness, but in fact emblematic of your strength.

Allison:

Yeah, absolutely. The whole show is such a reminder of truly the social process of leadership. So if you haven’t watched the show, I strongly, strongly recommend it. And again, I think, Ren, we could probably talk about this show for a while, which is probably why we saved it to last. It’s probably why people on Instagram voted so strongly, and LinkedIn as well, for Ted Lasso.

Ren:

That’s right.

Allison:

So again, leadership is indeed a social process, and it’s not always about you, and it’s okay to let other people shine. And remember, don’t silo yourself. There are always other people who have been through something similar who can offer you coaching and support. And I think we could probably leave it at that for today, and maybe we’ll come back to it after I finish this last season. Who knows?

Ren:

Yeah.

Allison:

Well, in the meantime —

Ren:

That and the Duttons.

Allison:

Oh, yes. Right. Oh gosh, what a contrast. Maybe we could contrast the 2.

Ren:

Yeah, huge contrast.

Allison:

Well, thanks for the conversation, Ren. And thanks to our listeners for tuning in, and to our CCL team who make this podcast happen behind the scenes. Thank you, Ren and I appreciate you. And our listeners, you can find all of our show notes and podcasts on ccl.org. Find us on LinkedIn. Let us know who you’d want to be managed by. Who would you want to be led by on Ted Lasso? We’ll look forward to tuning in with you next time. Thanks, Ren.

Ren:

Thanks, Allison. Thanks, everyone. See you next time. Find Allison on UK TikTok. I think it’s the same as US TikTok.